Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@Againstmachine

Disagree. They may try to bribe but will have the same outcome as Alexander the Great, the Moghuls, Indian empires, the Persians and the British. All these empires have invaded Afghanistan and lost to some degree. Islam was not invented in Afghanistan - it was introduced there by invading armies. A point not convenient for today's narrative of course. This is MN so bash the British.

Most empires have tried but today's world is different to the past I think the Taliban will accept money.

I think you are probably right. That approach has worked well in Pakistan. Imran Khan gets incandescent about perceived insults to Islam in the West but not a peep about wholesale repression of Muslims in China, bought and paid for by Chinese gold. There has to be a good chance the Taliban can be similarly persuaded.

The Chinese also have the great advantage of not having to worry about criticism for backing unpleasant or brutal governments.

Saw US soldiers talk to locals like dirt, laughing in their face when they wanted compensation for shot livestock and knock the people over for fun. I wouldnt trust them with refugees. Their ambassador is pathetic and they'l still expect british future cooperation after vanishing without a word.

Its undeniable the afghan army have been a disgrace.

@Mycatcontrolsmymovements

The comments from *@LadyAria* really struck home about how Afghanistan was pre any involvement from other countries. I found this

www.boredpanda.com/afghanistan-1960-bill-podlich-photography/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

What a step backward

Thank you for this article, I have seen many pics before but some of them were fresh and do beautiful to see. To know how Afghanistan was when my parents are growing up is hard to fathom now, I don't think we'll see that day again when women could go out so freely and enjoy the gardens and life in general.

It really is a step backwards in time!! You know, at that time the Beatles had such popularity in some cities but especially Kabul that many young men used to dress and be inspired by them! Such a world apart from now!!

It was just such a beautiful eclectic mix of different fashions, cultural and new. We had fashion shows and designers! We were featured in vogue!! At that time you'd see the royal family at the front row... What a sad change from that point in time to this...

@BrozTito

Its undeniable the afghan army have been a disgrace.

There are many videos surfacing of how the Afghan army have literally been forced to hand over weapons and stand down against the Taliban by US soldiers. I guess it serves their rhetoric of Afghan army not fighting so why should we? Honestly, some things look a lot more different than the truth on the ground actually is...

Where are these videos Lady?

@Againstmachine

Afghanistan is literally called the grave of empires. They have been invaded for centuries, but I fear that this one backed by so many superpowers might have been the one that takes it's toll.

How can a country torn apart by 40+ years of war at so many different hands still have anything left to give against the superpowers such as America, China and Saudi Arabia with Pakistan thrown into that. What country could stand a chance against this??

All those countries have awful human rights atrocities associated with them! Saudi Arabia with Yemen, China with Uighurs and generally its own people, let's not forget Russia against so many it has invaded (Ukraine being the most recent victim of Russia), America with generally the Middle East, Palestine, but Iraq being the top of this and Pakistan against Afghanistan for as long as I can remember.

It's really no surprise to us Afghans when we see the countries involved in these atrocities taking apart our country. Who will hold them accountable?? The US went in under the guise of helping Afghans, now they're saying it was for their own safety and nation building was never their agenda? It's just offensive from a country that has been involved with the downfall of Afghanistan for decades!

The US has already been implicated in giving the Taliban millions of dollars to safely take their citizens out, the corruption behind it all is hard to swallow.

Not to mention the fact that they had apparently given billions to Afghanistan, namely their own chosen Presidents who have American citizenship. That money was never seen by the civilians on the ground. It all went back to American pockets profiting from the war...

This all runs deeper than you can possibly imagine!

@LemonSwan

Where are these videos Lady?

How can I post one? It's all on Instagram, that seems to be the main way to get through some unbiased reporting... Just like with any movement of the last few years, Instagram is the way to get through to the masses without it being diluted by the likes of the BBC!

Here is a link...

www.instagram.com/reel/CSrJXI5KOU5/?utm_medium=copy_link

No time or date stamp on that video, or any info on where it was filmed

Also, what language is it in, do you speak it and can you give a verbatim translation?

To see the beauty of Afghanistan and its people though have a look at Khyber Khan on Instagram or Drew Binsky, he's an American who travelled through Afghanistan. I don't want you all to see the backwards ways of the Taliban, that is not my country, they are not our people.

Have a look at the beauty of its culture, people and its landscapes.

instagram.com/khyberkhaan?utm_medium=copy_link

instagram.com/drewbinsky?utm_medium=copy_link

@RoseAndRose

No time or date stamp on that video, or any info on where it was filmed

Also, what language is it in, do you speak it and can you give a verbatim translation?

Here's one with translation. No there is no time stamp, but it's hard to get one with a time stamp tbh. These videos come directly from Afghanistan from families of people. Many soldiers have tried to tell news channels that they did not voluntarily give up, they were told to by the government and by the American soldiers. Ashraf Ghani and the Americans worked together on securing Afghanistan for the Taliban and handing it all over. The Taliban didn't come suddenly in one week, this transition of power has been in the planning since last year since the 'peace talks' and they have been coming in for the past few months!

www.instagram.com/p/CStr8BhKpfF/?utm_medium=copy_link

[quote LadyAria]To see the beauty of Afghanistan and its people though have a look at Khyber Khan on Instagram or Drew Binsky, he's an American who travelled through Afghanistan. I don't want you all to see the backwards ways of the Taliban, that is not my country, they are not our people.

Have a look at the beauty of its culture, people and its landscapes.

instagram.com/khyberkhaan?utm_medium=copy_link

instagram.com/drewbinsky?utm_medium=copy_link[/quote]
Afghanistan is definitely a beautiful country. Not sure what the people being beautiful has to do with anything. And culture wise I think I would prefer to live in a country with less misogyny, child marriage and child rape. We're all different tho I guess

I can't help be angry at the west as a whole.

I mean they take over, acting the White Knight but then cause more problems than started with and then retreat.

Leaving the country going backwards again with new problems caused by trying to Westernise it.

I don't know what the answer is but it's not what's happened.

Here's the Taliban leader being released from prison in 2018 for 'peace talks'...

@Theythinkitsalloveritisnow
I don't mean literal beauty, I mean the beauty of their characters, they are the most generous hosts even when they have so little. The beauty of the children with smiles on their faces playing outside with nothing to their name. The beauty of their innocence.

There is much more to the beauty of a face, but the character they have living through decades of war is something else to be celebrated. The beauty of an old man with a smile after decades of war ravishes his home. The beauty of their hope despite everything they've been through...

@Theythinkitsalloveritisnow

We don't have misogyny and child rape in the UK? 🤔🤔🤔

Far from ideal but I think this is the case throughout the whole world. Name me a country that doesn't have misogyny or child rape? Women live through it no matter what background, race, country, religion they come from. But I guess some of us are more real about it than others... I mean, the me too movement of the West is kind of a reflection of this... 🤔

Afghanistan like any other country has its faults but also its beauty. Deserves to be in peace though regardless of the atrocious acts of a few?

There is much more to the beauty of a face, but the character they have living through decades of war is something else to be celebrated. The beauty of an old man with a smile after decades of war ravishes his home. The beauty of their hope despite everything they've been through...

Thank you for your insights, @LadyAria

The US went in under the guise of helping Afghans, now they're saying it was for their own safety and nation building was never their agenda?

No, the USA wanted revenge for 9/11 and thought that Bin Laden, whose Al Qaeda group perpetrated this, was hiding in Afghanistan. Like the bunch of cowboys the Americans tend to be, they went barging in. It had the bonus of driving the Taliban out, but only later was it dressed up as being for the Afghan's benefit.

@LadyAria

Thanks for posting the link.

I am under no disillusion that theres probably plenty going on which we are not aware of due to the 'narrative'

But I am unsure how that video has anything to do with the Americans.

I cant see a single American Troop in that video.

I think they are confusing those men in bullet vests with red berets as americans. But they aren't. Mainly because they are the ones pleading, upset and clasping their weapon which makes no sense with the narrative. But if you look at what they are wearing its not a full western kit. They dont have any webbing is the main thing which jumps out to me.

Its surprising as well being on her channel. I saw her on the news the other day and thought she was doing a great job advocating for the Afghans. I dont begrudge her though for this. I think watching this happen to your home country would be enough to cause all kinds of reactions in a person - as in its unreal to watch, and the line between reality and not is probably just a cortisol jumble right now

@BrozTito

Its undeniable the afghan army have been a disgrace.

69k Afghans have died fighting the Taliban.

Your statement goes against many veterans who served there, who want the 1000s of afghans who helped them, resettled in UK etc.

The US withdrew aircover and they have zero faith in their own corrupt govt would help them either - infact no one helped them, every single NATO country there (Turkey aside but non combat role) deserted the Afghan army.

imho its the 'west that is the disgrace - fleeing & and leaving their former allies to their fate.

Easy to be an armchair general and criticise those fighting a vicious enemy 1000s of miles away.

@Peregrina

The US went in under the guise of helping Afghans, now they're saying it was for their own safety and nation building was never their agenda?

No, the USA wanted revenge for 9/11 and thought that Bin Laden, whose Al Qaeda group perpetrated this, was hiding in Afghanistan. Like the bunch of cowboys the Americans tend to be, they went barging in. It had the bonus of driving the Taliban out, but only later was it dressed up as being for the Afghan's benefit.

I don’t think it was dressed up

On what I heard from US ambassador

It was primarily to ensure against future extremism in US and allies

The Taliban were offered power in return for AQ etc but said no,

[quote LemonSwan]@LadyAria

Thanks for posting the link.

I am under no disillusion that theres probably plenty going on which we are not aware of due to the 'narrative'

But I am unsure how that video has anything to do with the Americans.

I cant see a single American Troop in that video.

I think they are confusing those men in bullet vests with red berets as americans. But they aren't. Mainly because they are the ones pleading, upset and clasping their weapon which makes no sense with the narrative. But if you look at what they are wearing its not a full western kit. They dont have any webbing is the main thing which jumps out to me.

Its surprising as well being on her channel. I saw her on the news the other day and thought she was doing a great job advocating for the Afghans. I dont begrudge her though for this. I think watching this happen to your home country would be enough to cause all kinds of reactions in a person - as in its unreal to watch, and the line between reality and not is probably just a cortisol jumble right now[/quote]
Good to clear up the American troop or not.

On what I heard from US ambassador
It was primarily to ensure against future extremism in US and allies

The Taliban were offered power in return for AQ etc but said no

Why do you believe the Americans? Do you remember the "reasons" we went into Iraq?

@jasjas1973

On what I heard from US ambassador It was primarily to ensure against future extremism in US and allies

The Taliban were offered power in return for AQ etc but said no

Why do you believe the Americans? Do you remember the "reasons" we went into Iraq?

He was critical of decision so not saying it was good. I can’t see if he thought Biden got it wrong that he was dressing it up. Unless he was skewing it to be more negative due to his political bias.

But yes his view was said with clarity - a couple of days ago on R4 morning radio if you want to hear it. Maybe you’d disbelieve it which is fine.

Or you can offer up a link or source that says otherwise.

The UK did most of its troop withdrawal in about 2014 and although the US decision of Obama to withdraw, followed by Trump and now Biden has in the last week led to a quicker Taliban take over than expected, this is simply the best for the US/UK of two difficult options. Every man woman and child in the UK has paid £2000 of tax over 20 years for this conflict. We should have stayed out 20 years ago, never mind in the 1800s. We cannot police the world. Now we need to concentrate here -as LadyA says there is much we can help with in the UK such as abuse of child. Now is the time for the UK to concentrate on spending money and resources on the 67m people of the UK many of whom are in dire need.

I am obviously very sorry for those in Afghanistan who have suffered so badly under Islam and I hope we can protect women and girls in the UK from any religion that results in them not being treated equally.