Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

I agree they don’t want to live like people in the West. But that wasn’t the point of us being there. It was to arm and train them to fight off the Taliban, who were a danger to Western interests and civilians.

You can’t change people’s culture. Even when they come to live in a Western culture, they very often continue to live with values from the country they left. And pass them onto their children. Only they benefit from education, health and material wealth.

There are poor, unfortunates in many countries that we don’t discuss much. India? Women are being raped and murdered and treated appallingly with very little outcry from the West or the Indian diaspora. Plenty of African countries it’s the same. Afghanistan isn’t so different. We can’t save everyone.

I’m afraid I feel pretty despondent and resigned about all this today.

And fortunate. Incredibly fortunate.

How are we meant to help them when they don't seem to want to be helped?

Would you like someone coming in unsolicited to your country offering to help and completely change your way of life? We supposedly went in to hunt down Bin Laden. I have read that the Taliban may have been prepared to hand him over, but the US powers that be didn't want this. As a result, like other would be invaders, they have got their fingers badly burnt.

@Peregrina

How are we meant to help them when they don't seem to want to be helped?

Would you like someone coming in unsolicited to your country offering to help and completely change your way of life? We supposedly went in to hunt down Bin Laden. I have read that the Taliban may have been prepared to hand him over, but the US powers that be didn't want this. As a result, like other would be invaders, they have got their fingers badly burnt.

I thought the US offer was hand him over and you can take power - to the Taliban and they said no.

This was from Ambassador / US spokesperson who was critical of what happened now but talked about what happened on Sept 12th 2001.

The Taliban just held a press conference

news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-taliban-enters-outskirts-of-kabul-as-militants-say-they-dont-plan-to-take-capital-by-force-12382060

I was reading what life was like under Taliban rule for women previously and it actually makes me feel sick
Girls can only go to school until the age of 8, not too many years later the same girls will probably be married off to Taliban fighters.
They cannot leave the house without a male relative and they have to wear a full Burqa
They cannot wear make up, perfume or nail polish (Taliban closed all beauty and hair salons)
If women are outside with a male relative, their voices are not to be heard by strangers
They're not allowed to wear noisy shoes as it excites men.
If the women live in a ground or first floor apartments the windows should be painted over to stop women being visible from the street.
Women are forbidden to appear on the balconies of their homes or apartments.
Women are not allowed to ride bicycles
Women are not allowed to appear in magazines, newspapers or TV.
No public gatherings of women are allowed.
The word "Woman" is not allowed to be seen anywhere in public. So in a nutshell Women in Afghanistan are invisible ghosts with no human rights whatsoever, I could weep.

It’s trueapplyand it hasn’t nothing to do with opium. It’s laziness. The firing into the air and at nothing drives me up the wall.

Hmm. The hollering and firing into the air was conspicuous by it's absence. The Taliban forbade it because it wasn't the image they wanted to project. Considering they have swept across the country in days taking city after city they seem to have reasonable control over their own lot. I've no doubt that they will ruthlessly kill anyone they decide to kill and probably ignore raping of women and girls for now because chattel, and it probably sates the victory lust for "celebrating" and showing who's boss, but behind closed doors and without any unseemly and uncontrolled looting and wrecking and rioting and blatting into the sky with automatic weapons on TV - not the image of a powerful hegemony in total control of itself and everyone else.

They had attacked maternity hospitals etc and it worked to put the absolute fear into the population and there was little resistance to the takeover. But the shoe is on the other foot now and they have to rule the country. Hopefully they will work out that allowing UNICEF and other NGOs to do their thing- no doubt under "his" Taliban eye and with brown envelopes and backhanders aplenty- will help them to maintain the infrastructure they need to rule and keep an iron grip on the whole country, so they may have to accept a bit of vaccination, maternity care, even - shock- a bit of female education as the price of this work being done for them.

As far as "they don't want our help" is concerned- that's a broad generalisation for 38 million people. We aren't going to charge in with "boots on the ground" again...but maybe some blackboards and chalk on the ground will be able to survive or restart. Vaccinations on the ground. Midwives on the ground, perhaps. No doubt all having to be credited to whichever Grand High Holy Masterful Merciful Wizard is sitting on the top of the pile (I haven't even bothered to check his name). But still. They might tolerate some quiet little improvements to the lot of women and children as long as they can wave their dicks around on the local, national and world stage.

[quote DuncinToffee]The Taliban just held a press conference

news.sky.com/story/afghanistan-taliban-enters-outskirts-of-kabul-as-militants-say-they-dont-plan-to-take-capital-by-force-12382060[/quote]
I take everything the Taliban say with a pinch of salt tbh, I think they're saying the those things now but it's all bluster because the world is watching, once the worlds cameras are not so focused on them it will be Taliban business as usual, in fact there are reports coming out from locals saying they're already going from street to street hunting out the Western sympathizers..

Absolutely JohnStones, it is just surreal them holding a press conference.

ut is just surreal them holding a press conference.

Well, I think they are very aware of how to use the media for their own ends and probably want to be recognised as a legitimate government.

I take everything the Taliban say with a pinch of salt tbh, I think they're saying the those things now but it's all bluster because the world is watching

TBH I wouldn't epect them to care that the world's watching - unless they're hoping for the aid to increase so they can pocket more of it

As you say it'll doubtless be back to business as usual for them soon enough (and some will insist that's all the west's fault too)

I think we can take their words at face value.

Because 'within an Islamic framework' is definitely a grandma's nightgown phrase

Incredibly brave young women.

twitter.com/leahmcelrath/status/1427643075829059599?s=20

All this nonsense about women presenters being allowed on tv - the Taliban simply want to staunch the flow of civil servants, doctors, tradesmen etc, so that the country doesn't fall apart and become totally and immediately ungovernable, so they're making false promises of moderation which will be followed by the slow boiled frog of a tightening noose later ...and then full blown purges.

They had already begun house to house searches. Men were shot in the street and laid out for others to see. A woman had her eyes gouged out in front of her husband and and children to settle a historic grudge felt by one of the Talib fighters. Etc.

The strategy of calming the masses with soothing promises of continued freedoms was used by the Chinese communists following "liberation" and it seems clear to me that a word has been had from China to calm the situation in the short term with this same strategy.

Purges WILL follow, as surely as night follows day.

You really couldn't make it up - seems Labour MP Richard Burgon's now calling for "reparations" to be paid to Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, and that's on top of the billions already spent

What was I saying about an opportunity for the Taliban to pocket yet more money ...?

John Simpson on twitter

I’ve know the Taliban spokesman at today’s press conference in Kabul for many years. Zabihullah Mujahid is a relatively moderate, pleasant man. But he’s seeking to calm the world’s fears, & he only speaks for one part of the Taliban movement.

@DuncinToffee

John Simpson on twitter

I’ve know the Taliban spokesman at today’s press conference in Kabul for many years. Zabihullah Mujahid is a relatively moderate, pleasant man. But he’s seeking to calm the world’s fears, & he only speaks for one part of the Taliban movement.

Yep, there it is.

For fucks sake, a moderate pleasant man? This is the same man who claimed responsibility for the bombing of an Army base that killed 140 soldiers, are people really that thick?

seems Labour MP Richard Burgon's now calling for "reparations" to be paid to Taliban-controlled Afghanistan,

What a numpty.

The comments from @LadyAria really struck home about how Afghanistan was pre any involvement from other countries. I found this

www.boredpanda.com/afghanistan-1960-bill-podlich-photography/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

What a step backward

Today 18:06 powershowerforanhour

seems Labour MP Richard Burgon's now calling for "reparations" to be paid to Taliban-controlled Afghanistan”

Never taken him seriously, certainly won’t be starting now.

@Mycatcontrolsmymovements

The comments from *@LadyAria* really struck home about how Afghanistan was pre any involvement from other countries. I found this

www.boredpanda.com/afghanistan-1960-bill-podlich-photography/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic

What a step backward

Looking at these pictures and comparing them to today's situation breaks my heart. They looked so free and happy, especially the little kids playing.

Brave Afghan women protesting for their rights in Kabul. “Work, education and political participation is every woman’s right”
twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1427594136689987591?s=19

What truly incredible women.

A woman had her eyes gouged out in front of her husband and and children to settle a historic grudge felt by one of the Talib fighters. Etc.

A woman had her eyes gouged out - and yet there are still posters on here defending the withdrawal. Shame on you.

Horrifying watching how the pre-Taliban were encouraged by the West to overcome the Soviets

Horrifying watching how the pre-Taliban were encouraged by the West to overcome the Soviets

If you look through history the USA has a habit of arming Thier future enemies, Vietnam against the Portugal, Iraq against Iran and the USSR against Afghanistan.

I'm not sure why they never learn the lesson.