Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

How exactly do you think these men will be able to get their wives and children out once they're safely in Europe and the Taliban has full control over the borders in Afghanistan? They can't

And how are the women going to survive if there are no men to accompany them shopping or to bring some money home? The men are fleeing and leaving women behind to starve.

twitter.com/justinhendrix/status/1427012482825076736?s=20

The reality is, Afganistan is a hell-hole for women and children, whoever is in power. Removing them, then blowing it to Kingdom come, would probably be the best solution

Not easy to blow up all the necessary targets in a place that's so mountainous, even if it was a good idea, and what would we do about all the supporters/training camps in Pakistan - blow that up too?

They wouldn't like that, and neither would Russia, China, etc ...

What will happen next? Will the taliban keep tying to gain more land under their control?

The Un secretary General agrees with me , "Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said he was 'particularly concerned' by accounts of human rights violations against the women and girls of Afghanistan who fear a return to the darkest days' in the 1990s when the Taliban ruled and barred girls for getting an education and imposed draconian measures on women"

^^.

Can it be any clearer or are people willfully misunderstanding my posts. I do not wish men to remain behind to be shot or be forced to grow a beard but the whole family can go together.

Its diabolical that people really think that the women cannot have as much of a chance of making freedom as the men. Many women and children are at the airport - (although someone has tweeted that their disabled mother is stuck there i a wheel chair and women and children are being knocked aside )...its just there are not enough there its very clearly a more male dominated scene than an equal scene.

The UN are concerned about the women and every sinew should be strained to get them out.

Do we know the rough population of females in Kabul?

^^ I am getting that removed because I did not realise we could not copy and paste

This thread shows how little people know about Afghanistan, but how quickly they can armchair theorise. You can't just draw some lines on a map (like we, the Brits, did in 1880) and say '"Tadah, Afghanistan" and think that people will suddenly think they are 'Afghan' (not bloody Afghani, that's like saying Welshlish or Scotlish).

Afghanistan consists of (amongst many more) Pashtuns, Hazaras, Tajiks, uzbeks and so on. They have more in common with peoples outside their borders rather than inside Afghanistan. That's why Dari is more like Farsi (what the Iranians speak).

Women are traeted like crap all over Afghanistan, as they were before the US lead invasion. When the Russians invaded they gave women a similar chance that we tried to, but as soon as they left it slipped back. Mainly because the vast majority of Afghanistan doesn't want or like western ideals. I don't see why we should die to try and change a culture that doesn't want to change. All these people who want to...get yourself over there but stop volunteering soldiers lives and taxpayers money.

Also: you can't just fly an aircraft without learning how to. You need to maintain planes more than you fly them. Which is why the vast majority of any airforce is engineers and mechanics, not pilots.

The Afghan army is crap. Also has been. Deploy Hazaras to a pashtun area for 3 years and then fail to understand why they don't give a shit?

The Taliban rape boys more than girls. The northern alliance raped boys more than girls. The Afghan army raped boys and young men more than girls and women. Lots of 'afghan' culture involves sexually abusing young boys. Girls and women are married off. Just like they are in many countries from India to Saudi to Pakistan and so on. But we aren't invading them. Learn about the country and the horrific culture and definitely want to change it.

There is very little oil in Afghanistan, similar to Chad in Africa. Yes there's mineral resources, but that fuck all good when there's no security.

President ghani ran away because he was very aware what happened to Najibullah. He didn't want to end up hanging from a lamp post.

All of the above should prove one thing: it is not the job of a British or American soldier to change people's culture.

@Handsoffstrikesagain

In this situation, unfortunately the women’s best chance is to cooperate. The alternative is death.

I would kill myself today in that situation, rather than spend the rest of my life being raped, tortured and effectively caged.

That’s quite a statement. What if you have young children to look after

We know that people manage to somehow survive the most extreme cruelty. They make life the best they can it’s survival and most of us would opt for that

I don’t think it’s possible to change people’s culture. These countries don’t know democracy and don’t want it. It’s a losing battle and if we get involved again it will be disastrous - again. Sadly the world is made up of many countries, many cultures, each abhorrent to someone, somewhere.

culture changes take centuries not decades

@Thatsjustwhatithink

This thread shows how little people know about Afghanistan, but how quickly they can armchair theorise. You can't just draw some lines on a map (like we, the Brits, did in 1880) and say '"Tadah, Afghanistan" and think that people will suddenly think they are 'Afghan' (not bloody Afghani, that's like saying Welshlish or Scotlish).

Afghanistan consists of (amongst many more) Pashtuns, Hazaras, Tajiks, uzbeks and so on. They have more in common with peoples outside their borders rather than inside Afghanistan. That's why Dari is more like Farsi (what the Iranians speak).

Women are traeted like crap all over Afghanistan, as they were before the US lead invasion. When the Russians invaded they gave women a similar chance that we tried to, but as soon as they left it slipped back. Mainly because the vast majority of Afghanistan doesn't want or like western ideals. I don't see why we should die to try and change a culture that doesn't want to change. All these people who want to...get yourself over there but stop volunteering soldiers lives and taxpayers money.

Also: you can't just fly an aircraft without learning how to. You need to maintain planes more than you fly them. Which is why the vast majority of any airforce is engineers and mechanics, not pilots.

The Afghan army is crap. Also has been. Deploy Hazaras to a pashtun area for 3 years and then fail to understand why they don't give a shit?

The Taliban rape boys more than girls. The northern alliance raped boys more than girls. The Afghan army raped boys and young men more than girls and women. Lots of 'afghan' culture involves sexually abusing young boys. Girls and women are married off. Just like they are in many countries from India to Saudi to Pakistan and so on. But we aren't invading them. Learn about the country and the horrific culture and definitely want to change it.

There is very little oil in Afghanistan, similar to Chad in Africa. Yes there's mineral resources, but that fuck all good when there's no security.

President ghani ran away because he was very aware what happened to Najibullah. He didn't want to end up hanging from a lamp post.

All of the above should prove one thing: it is not the job of a British or American soldier to change people's culture.

I agree with much of this.

One thing - the US were there for their own interests, and their allies, that is as some kind of insurance against extremist attacks. Are you concerned about this increasing now they’ve left?

I don’t think there’s any winning here. We stay indefinitely if we want the above, as soon as we leave Taliban are waiting, but is there any argument for still acting in US interests and staying? I think probably not but have some sympathy for view (of US Ambassador who stayed this)

Stayed - Stated

Because many of the men will be slaughtered

The decisions being made are about survival not life choices

I think many people understand this but are struggling with how you could leave your wife and children behind to face what they will face.

Could you attempt to survive by fleeing and leave your children behind?

I’m trying not to make judgement on those men because I have zero idea what they’re going through but I’m certain I could not leave my children like that.

Also, the PP who mentioned that she would have a better chance than her DH in getting her family out, surely it was obvious that she meant in terms of employability and visas rather than thinking she was Bruce Willis.

It’s not a decision I will have thankfully have to make

But I can’t judge or claim I can’t imagine why they are making those decisions when their decisions are about survival

For many it will be certain death or get out and maybe there is a chance you can help. There is always a way to get money in and people out we see how resourceful people are

I can’t imagine how a women can come to the decision to murder her own children rather than they live a life of slavery but I don’t have to imagine but I can understand that when people are are extreme circumstances choices that may seem utterly wrong to us is all they feel they have

Like I have said before do you really believe these men are devoid of feelings towards the girls and women in their families or the older men left behind

Some facts from UNHRC (UN Refugee Agency)

Important to remember we already had huge movement of Afghans before the last few days.

-UNHCR estimates that 550,000+ have been forced to flee their homes since the start of 2021.

-2.6 million have become international refugees since 2001.

-3 million displaced internally.

They also say that tragically more women and children have been killed and wounded in the first half of 2021 than in any full year since records began in 2009.

Women’s rights are a peripheral issue to the diabolical poverty faced by most Afghans. I know that will be an unpopular opinion but it’s true. Saudis don’t flee Saudi Arabia because they want freedom. Freedom doesn’t put food on the table or clothes on your children’s backs. This freedom narrative is a bleeding heart attitude from people who have never lived in or understood these societies.

Wars don’t change culture. Economic prosperity does. The only way to stop people oppressing each other is to make sure they have enough resources to have a stake in society and much to lose if they engage in violence. The last 20 years have been dire in Afghanistan in terms of building this resilience. The most unbelievably corrupt people were installed in power. So corrupt that it would make you weep if you knew how they were plundering their own country men and women. Most people fleeing are trying to get away from the dire economic situation. The singles best thing that can happen to Afghans now is if China makes a play for proxy power and continues its agenda if praising colonization through bringing infrastructure projects to Afghanistan to consolidate its position in Central Asia.

This argument is rather spurious because I've been responding to pics in red posts which have framed this in a narrow way
Responding back in the narrow frame set, the argument that some posters are making for women an children to be left behind is that some men we see at the airport may get shot.

We don't know that, we know they are desperate. I don't blame any one male or female for going to the airport, whether they are at risk of being killed by the taliban or not.
I want everyone who wants to leave to be able to do so and sadly we know that won't happen.

However, I don't buy this argument of leaving the women because... Every. Single. Female
Will. Be. Imprisoned now
. In their houses for the rest. Of. Their. Lives

I am utterly flummoxed that the posters who feel being left behind rather than take their chances at the airport are going to have a better time of it back at home .

Not sure if this has been shared, a twitter thread on how quick it all happened

twitter.com/aahmady/status/1427265049668636674?s=19
1/The collapse of the Government in Afghanistan this past week was so swift and complete - it was disorienting and difficult to comprehend.

This is how the events seemed to proceed from my perspective as Central Bank Governor.

@Panickingpavlova

This argument is rather spurious because I've been responding to pics in red posts which have framed this in a narrow way Responding back in the narrow frame set, the argument that some posters are making for women an children to be left behind is that some men we see at the airport may get shot.

We don't know that, we know they are desperate. I don't blame any one male or female for going to the airport, whether they are at risk of being killed by the taliban or not.
I want everyone who wants to leave to be able to do so and sadly we know that won't happen.

However, I don't buy this argument of leaving the women because... Every. Single. Female
Will. Be. Imprisoned now
. In their houses for the rest. Of. Their. Lives

I am utterly flummoxed that the posters who feel being left behind rather than take their chances at the airport are going to have a better time of it back at home .

@Panickingpavlova

Have you ever spent time in Afghanistan or Pakistan?

It is my understanding that we went into Afghanistan as part of a NATO treaty obligation.

This to my reading seems a very balanced report of why we went in. Bush and Blair showing the world how big their bollocks were. Lapped up of course, by the arms industry. Nothing to do with needing to defend a NATO state.

I don’t know how they can secure the airport now. I read that the US was deciding whether to just get US citizens out or to support afghan allies. You’d think the US abs Uk diplomats still remaining would be in some considerable danger the longer they remain.

I just can’t imagine what it must feel like for the women and girls who may never now know freedom. Having had a taste of education to go backwards must be awful let alone the brutality many will face.

The Afghan army was better equipped, trained and manned better than the Taliban, a lot of this is on them.