Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@PickUpAPepper

I believe, for comparison, that we still have army personnel in Germany?

Possibly, I’ve lost track, but if there are it’s a legacy of the Cold War and the Warsaw Pact threat rather than an attempt to control the German population.

@tttigress

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

After seeing the different missions of the 33rd logistical studies group and various covert missions they undertook, id guess that there is many missions of different types that the public are unlikely to be aware of, due to either national security, or diplomatic relations, or various other reasons. Therefore I'd say we the public only see or would read about a very small percentage of the "publicly official" reasons of what was achieved.

The weeping and screaming needs to be aimed at the perpetrators, the stone-aged Taliban and other extremists in every country

Quite so, except I'd add that it also needs to be aimed at both the active supporters and the useful idiots whose knee jerk reaction is to simply blame the west for everything

Nobody disputes that mistakes have probably been made - they always are in complex situations - but for me the biggest was in imagining we could ever make a real difference to the attitudes of a society where too many simply don't wish to change

@PickUpAPepper

Then they should never have gone in. It didn’t stop the bombings. It didn’t stop Islamic terrorism. It didn’t stop Islamic fundamentalism. It has certainly not done the women and children there any good, they will be treated as collaborators. There will be worse to come.

It also did not stop the arms trade, or the drugs trade, or the poor attitudes of women across the world.

Get used to people asking what was it for.

There is a big majority of people that unfortunately believe what they are told on the BBC, Daily Mail, Telegraph and rest of mass media. Apply the same to the rest of Europe and Western countries.

Few people actually cared about researching about the war in Afghanistan, their history with foreign invasions and if America and a few other countries invading will stop terrorism when they, on the other hand, support Pakistan who is the biggest supplier of arms and logistics to the Taliban.

The one thing that's going to finally change Western wars interventions in the middle east is going to be climate change. The less the West needs oil to control and support their industries, the less we will see wars in that part of the world. It's all about money, nothing else.

[quote shekamboo]@LadyAria I am also an afghan. Have you spoke to anyone back home because I do everyday and it's not a coincidence that everyone I have spoke to, is in no way concerned.

My auntie is a very educated woman as my cousins, they have all gone to work today in their offices.

Lots of business owners are happy, as my nephews shop was constantly getting ransacked and police wouldn't do anything because the thieves were lining their pockets.

I see social media from the west, but everything from the east is so telling.

My grandma here in London is crying but my auntie in Kabul tells her everything is fine. [/quote]
I'm sorry Shekamboo but has it not occurred to you that maybe your relatives are being brave on the phone so as to try and not upset your grandmother more? Or that, like many people do in times of extreme stress, disassociating from the oncoming danger and holding onto the unlikely possibility that everything is fine. Many, many people did it here as the reality of the Covid pandemic became undeniable. Europeans in the 30s and even early 40s did it as they couldn't allow themselves to accept what the Nazis were doing. It's certainly not beyond reason, that there are people in Afghanistan who just can't quite allow themselves to face what's about to happen. Who will look at the massive failures that continued to disrupt people's lives during the occupation and tell themselves this will be better.

I desperately hope I am wrong but history has shown us over and over and over, that sometimes people facing oncoming horror, convince themselves that it might be a good thing.

The one thing that's going to finally change Western wars interventions in the middle east is going to be climate change. The less the West needs oil to control and support their industries, the less we will see wars in that part of the world. It's all about money, nothing else

Absolutely agree Alondra at the moment we simply do not want that area at war

I hope for the sake of everyone the Taliban has changed

Of course the Taliban hasn't changed. I can't believe anyone would be so naive to think otherwise.

shekamboo family may be absolutely fine

Life goes on during wars/invasions and not all areas are impacted

We see what is news worthy. If London was over taken by an armed political group it would be Westminster that would be targeted life would carry on pretty much as normal in other areas until fighting spread out but that’s not really worth reporting

There might be a few armed trucks going around that people will try and hide from but life has to go on and the Taliban haven’t been in power for 24hrs yet

Shame on you for spreading this propaganda about women from your own country.

This. I don't believe a word of that post.

lllllllllll

I don’t believe it has I said I hope it has and the response was for everyone it’s a miserable life for all (unless a commander)

I don’t believe it has I said I hope it has and the response was for everyone it’s a miserable life for all (unless a commander)

Sorry, but it's naive to even hope it has changed.

The US has roughly 33,000 troops in Germany.
The UK has roughly 5,000 troops in Germany.

Ridiculous.

If we are worried about threats from Russia, perhaps move them into Poland?

If we just want a geographic spread Afghanistan would not have been a bad spot.

Germany really doesn’t require them. (I appreciate there is a lot of infrastructure there, and the purpose is not to manage Germany itself, but I think it is time to readjust and accept that it is time to make a move.)

Well if there isn’t hope what is there but I am sitting from a privileged position

I doubt many in Afghanistan have hope now after years of fighting who do they trust

Afghanistan is reliant on foreign donations for 80 per cent of its budget. Yet this torrent of foreign cash has failed to deliver deep-rooted and sustainable societal change – although massively benefiting the Dubai property market. Scores of well-informed voices, ceaseless reports and endless stories warned that Western taxpayers were pouring cash into pockets of the self-serving rich. So is it any wonder an edifice collapses quickly when it is so rotten behind the surface?....

One vice-president, a close ally of the US, was discovered in 2009 arriving in Dubai with $52m in cash. Diplomatic cables warned “vast amounts of cash” were leaving the country and officials were systematically milking the flow of funds. Almost $1bn was extracted in what US officials called “the biggest per capita fraud in history” involving Kabul Bank.

It takes more than cash, guns and glib talk to build a better world. Afghanistan is another example of the aid illusion: how countries most in need of support from foreign benefactors are often those with the least ability to handle big donations. As the former aid minister Rory Stewart said: “The liberal imperialist idea – the fashion of creating governance and stability in a post-conflict zone through the application of development aid – is mistaken.” Yet again, we see the truth of those words.
Taken from the i

Well if there isn’t hope what is there

Practical assistance.

About ten years ago now, I met in the course of my work a very senior army officer who had a key role in the UK Afghanistan mission. He was frank enough to say that the expectation of the army is that at some point they would leave, and that the situation for civilians would return to what it was, or perhaps be even worse. This in his view was down to an endemically corrupt government (which is now very much apparent). No appetite or wish to implement democracy amongst most of the population (so the government structures do not function), and pretty much zero motivation from a national army which was always going to collapse. For women in Afghanistan the results will be truly catastrophic in a regime which on a good day things girls should be educated only to 12, and in practice not at all, and which actively facilitates rape (forcing victims to marry their rapists and allowing fighters to take new "wives" by force). The harsh reality is there is little or nothing we can do. Status for Afghanistan as a failed theocracy awaits.

Practical assistance doesn’t change mind set

We should absolutely be helping people but to think our help will make them magically view western way of running a country the correct way

And as posted above practical assistance lines many many pockets

@Hawkins001
After seeing the different missions of the 33rd logistical studies group and various covert missions they undertook,
What is this unit? Are they part of the US military?
I only ask because I can only find references online to a 303rd logistical studies group - and they are a fictional unit depicted in a US TV series.
It sounds as if you have some inside information on US forces, so it's not a surprise if most of us "general public" aren't party to it.

@lllllllllll

I hope for the sake of everyone the Taliban has changed

Of course the Taliban hasn't changed. I can't believe anyone would be so naive to think otherwise.

No, it has not changed. They've been the same for hundred of years in their own countries until the West decided they needed their oil and invaded, an American policy starting 200 years ago, it's not new.

Islamic fundamentalism never committed an act of terrorism in the Western world until they had enough of western terrorism and appropriation of their resources in their own countries. Prior to that, was the religious wars Christianity fought in the middle east against muslims 1000 years ago in their own land .

The one thing in common is that it's always been the West driven by religion or financial control that have invaded the middle east. NOT the opposite.

The Middle east should have their right to their own laws, the ones most of their own people support without constant interventions from the West to control them.

Enough.

The US has roughly 33,000 troops in Germany. The UK has roughly 5,000 troops in Germany. Ridiculous. If we are worried about threats from Russia, perhaps move them into Poland?

I used the word legacy deliberately - by way of context look at the numbers that were there (when I was FWIW in the Cold War, current numbers are a rump presence, not a fighting force..

And I’m sure the Russians would be highly delighted if they moved east.

I fail to see how there is an comparison/commonality with events in Afghanistan at all TBH.

@Handsoffstrikesagain

cupar you win the internet with that post. Spot on. You will never change Afghanistan. It is what it is. Just like no one will ever change the culture of Brits, the French, Americans. We are who we are. It’s so so difficult.

I don’t believe this at all.

Afghanistan wasn’t always like this.

dangerousminds.net/comments/it_didnt_always_suck_to_be_a_woman_in_afghanistan

@shekamboo

Don't you think it's a bit of Stockholm syndrome?

It might seem peaceful now because the unrest in the first place was caused by the Taliban constantly... Now they have taken control they have stopped the attacks against the maternity hospitals and schools etc...

You can't really say that there's some kind of peace when they were causing the unrest in the first place...

Also, Kabul may be like that but do you think in the villages women will be as free? Why do we set the bar so low for women in Afghanistan? 'oh look, they're allowed to work (but only in certain jobs). And allowed to go to school until age 12'. No that isn't something they should be 'allowed', it's really just a fundamental human right to have an education and Islam advocates that women should be given an education and be able to work etc from thousands of years ago, why are they choosing such barbaric ways to practice an otherwise peaceful religion!?!

Also, I do agree with others, the Taliban are made up of mainly Pakistani Pathans but they have recruited many pashtuns especially from tribal areas. Pashtuns have forever tried to dominate Afghanistan against all the other ethnic groups. This is apparent in the fact that they've made pashto the official language in an area with thousands years of history of being a predominantly farsi speaking country.

They are literally wiping off the true history and replacing it with their own fake narrative.

Afghanistan wasn’t always like this.

No. I was a student in the early seventies, and a lot of people took a year off, (not called a gap year then) and did the 'hippy trail' to India, going overland by way of Afghanistan. So it was clearly safe enough to do so then.