Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

We don't have 5000 troops in Germany, the aim was to withdraw by 2020, now there are a few hundred, if that.

From AP, Russia beginning to withdraw embassy staff, speed of takeover unexpected

Zamir Kabulov told the Ekho Moskvy radio station that some of roughly 100 Russian embassy staff “will be placed on leave or evacuated in some other fashion just in order not to create too big a presence”.

Kabulov has said the Russian ambassador to Afghanistan, Dmitry Zhirnov, will meet a Taliban representative on Tuesday to discuss security for the diplomatic mission, adding that the outside perimeter of the embassy is already being guarded by the Taliban.

Kabulov also said the Taliban’s swift takeover of the Afghan capital was “somewhat unexpected”. He said Russia was “too optimistic in our assessment of the quality of the armed forces trained by the Americans and Nato”. Kabulov said of those forces: “They dropped everything at the first shot.”

So if Saudi and Russia are now both quietly withdrawing their people from Afghanistan (especially given Russia initially indicated they would remain), I'd say that's a really bad omen.

There are many issues in Afghanistan.

The soldiers were told to stand down against the Taliban from months ago, the corrupt government lined their pockets, sold out Afghanistan and left, they don't have to worry, their women and children are safely being educated and working in other countries...

But Afghanistan wasn't always like this, we have gone back in time. Before the Russian invasion, Afghanistan was becoming a booming economy in the area, very modern. There were women in all industries, people would holiday there. It was and still is such a beautiful country. We have such a deep history. Taliban are animals who want to erase this history.

We are a predominantly Muslim country but we have proud sikhs, Hindus, Jewish people who have all had to flee. We had the oldest Buddha statues in the world that were destroyed, many Afghans were actually so proud of those statues, it shows a kind of creation that you couldn't fathom being made in it's day. We have a history of poets (Rumi being the most famous).

If Afghanistan were allowed without initial Western interference, we would be a very nice modern place to visit in an area where so many are backwards minded but the king of the time Zahir Shah was very forward thinking. The day he was ousted in a coup was the true day Afghanistan fell into backward minded hands. If the girls and boys of Afghanistan were given half a chance they would choose to be educated, they crave it. They would work to create a civil society equal for all. It is just never allowed or possible because we have such tribal issues.

The truth is, the way its all happened is because Afghanistan is divided and the root of the issue is that it comes from the tribal ways of the Pashtuns. If they had created the durrand line to take all the pashtuns as part of Pakistan, the rest of Afghanistan would be living peacefully right now.

My opinion is not a popular opinion but if we look at the cold hard facts of it, it's true.

[quote LadyAria]@shekamboo

Don't you think it's a bit of Stockholm syndrome?

It might seem peaceful now because the unrest in the first place was caused by the Taliban constantly... Now they have taken control they have stopped the attacks against the maternity hospitals and schools etc...

You can't really say that there's some kind of peace when they were causing the unrest in the first place...

Also, Kabul may be like that but do you think in the villages women will be as free? Why do we set the bar so low for women in Afghanistan? 'oh look, they're allowed to work (but only in certain jobs). And allowed to go to school until age 12'. No that isn't something they should be 'allowed', it's really just a fundamental human right to have an education and Islam advocates that women should be given an education and be able to work etc from thousands of years ago, why are they choosing such barbaric ways to practice an otherwise peaceful religion!?!

Also, I do agree with others, the Taliban are made up of mainly Pakistani Pathans but they have recruited many pashtuns especially from tribal areas. Pashtuns have forever tried to dominate Afghanistan against all the other ethnic groups. This is apparent in the fact that they've made pashto the official language in an area with thousands years of history of being a predominantly farsi speaking country.

They are literally wiping off the true history and replacing it with their own fake narrative.[/quote]
They are not replacing true history, Middle East and many countries in Africa are driven by tribal history. A history the UK and America with their policy of divide and conquer tried to eradicate and have failed to do so.

They have their right to their resolve their own tribalism without the West deciding for them with a war, killing millions of civilian lives, while taking their countries resources.

It is my understanding that we went into Afghanistan as part of a NATO treaty obligation. USA invoked (is it Article 19?) of the pact where if one member is attacked, the other members are duty bound to assist. 9/11 was an attack sponsored by the Taliban on a NATO member, the USA. No other NATO member has ever invoked it.
This was not the Iraq nonsense in fact, if we hadn't wasted our reputation an resource in Iraq, we could have done a better job reinforcing a non-Taliban Afghanistan.

Also, Kabul may be like that but do you think in the villages women will be as free? Why do we set the bar so low for women in Afghanistan? 'oh look, they're allowed to work (but only in certain jobs). And allowed to go to school until age 12'. No that isn't something they should be 'allowed', it's really just a fundamental human right to have an education and Islam advocates that women should be given an education and be able to work etc from thousands of years ago, why are they choosing such barbaric ways to practice an otherwise peaceful religion!?!*

In all fairness, it really wasn’t that long ago that here in England, girls were not expected to go to school and could only work certain jobs which they had to give up as soon as they married. In the history of humanity, woman rights is a very very new concept. We have spend 1000s of years being second class citizens to men, and not even one hundred as being equal. Times are changing in the Middle East, Saudi is improving, and maybe the Taliban will as well, they just need to be given time to make these changes and it really has to come from within, we cannot enforce our new western rules on their Middle Eastern society. We have to accept Afghanistan is not a mini USA or UK, and we need to stop interfering and let them blossom as their own country with their own way of life growing and adapting as needed

@PicsInRed

So if Saudi and Russia are now both quietly withdrawing their people from Afghanistan (especially given Russia initially indicated they would remain), I'd say that's a really bad omen.

I agree, that means the Russians think they are at signficant risk.

It’s a terrible situation but the earlier quote of the military folding at th first shot seems accurate, they had enough power to hold Kabul for at least three months and the Taliban basically took over unchallenged. The troops were not even withdrawn, just signalled to start and the Taliban has taken over in a week. The speed is breathtaking and shocking.

You’ve got to ask, wtf did we spend a trillion dollars of tax payers money on building them an efficient and effective military for , if they were never going to stand up to thr taliban. This money could have been spent so much better elsewhere.

Of course the Taliban hasn't changed

I wouldn't quite say that; fired up with insensate aggression and encouraged by recent "successes" it may well be that they've got even worse

The Middle east should have their right to their own laws, the ones most of their own people support without constant interventions from the West to control them

Quite right in principle; trouble is, it involves women continuing to be stoned, lashed, raped and worse, which upsets those in more developed nations and leads to cries of "somebody must do something"
A shame, then, that realistically there's little to be done

Also, the Taliban could never be defeated, I think America realised this and this is why they handed Afghanistan off a plate to them.

Taliban have the backing of China who want to control the uyghur Muslims (genocide going on there, such horrifying atrocities that the World is turning a blind eye to). Saudi Arabia and Pakistan also back the Taliban, obviously they were created in Pakistan and they follow the Saudi wahabi (extremist) ways.

America, went in without really understanding the ways of the culture, Pakistan and Saudi understood and used this to take a foothold of the area. Also, America, would not go against the Saudis and Pakistan so the only way out at this point was to leave suddenly and destabilise the area, leaving it to be taken over by the Taliban, which they knew would happen. When a group has funding from China, Saudi and Pakistan, what hope does Afghanistan have?

The government soldiers may not fight, but there will be hardcore deep patriotic Afghans who will, they will regroup and they will fight the Taliban, but without the same kind of funding how far can they get!?!

But a sobering thought for all now is that the Taliban now have access to all the military left behind by the Americans and they will allow extremist groups to prosper there again so there will be more terror attacks, those groups are not afghan groups but jihadis from all over the Arab and Pakistani world who will be given a safe haven in Afghanistan whilst the innocent civilians suffer.

Afghans do not want to leave their home but are forced to.

What they should have done is taken land from Pakistan and let the Taliban rule there if Pakistani government believe in them so much they should not have hesitated in doing this really. Then Afghans could live in their peace and the Taliban could have their backwards way of living between themselves and any who want to live like that. But to enforce their ideologies on a group of innocent people who don't want it, I can't understand that...

Liken them to orcs but the ideology to Thanos. They've been calling it Afghanistan endgame on TV all day, its more like infinity war at this point...

@PickUpAPepper

I believe, for comparison, that we still have army personnel in Germany?

But not there as a peace keeping force against the Germans! It was a post-war occuatipn force, also to prevent the spread of the USSR to the West, which became it's main purpose until Germany was reunified. Subsequently it was largely a training area though with Putin's ambitions it may again be there to keep him out.

Afghanistan endgame

I noticed this of Sky News and found it really fucking offensive.

Like they consider Rape of Afghanistan to be nothing more than Grand Theft Auto: Afghan Edition

Maybe, just maybe the men of Afghanistan don't really care that much about Taliban Rule, many may be even happy about it...

After all if it's women's rights that are degraded, how many Men especially in that part of the world will be secretly or openly pleased about the further subjugation of women...

Quote from The Guardian Article:

"Meanwhile, the men standing around were making fun of girls and women, laughing at our terror. “Go and put on your chadari [burqa],” one called out. “It is your last days of being out on the streets,” said another. “I will marry four of you in one day,” said a third."

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/an-afghan-woman-in-kabul-now-i-have-to-burn-everything-i-achieved

Tweet by a RMSalih "Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic deferat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative rather than the RED HERRINGS ABOUT WOMENS RIGHTS ETC"

Attitudes and values are not going to change in this part of the World towards Women, so whether we are in or out of the country, it's a lost cause...

@PicsInRed

Afghanistan endgame

I noticed this of Sky News and found it really fucking offensive.

Like they consider Rape of Afghanistan to be nothing more than Grand Theft Auto: Afghan Edition

Exactly, what do they mean by endgame!?!??? This isn't fucking marvel comics!! There's no iron man to come save anyone here...

Just looking at pictures from the airport people dead trying to flee hanging off planes. All men so they must either think their mothers, sisters, wives are safe or just not care.

China won't stand for muslim s unless there's money in it

@icelolly12

Maybe, just maybe the men of Afghanistan don't really care that much about Taliban Rule, many may be even happy about it...

After all if it's women's rights that are degraded, how many Men especially in that part of the world will be secretly or openly pleased about the further subjugation of women...

Quote from The Guardian Article:

"Meanwhile, the men standing around were making fun of girls and women, laughing at our terror. “Go and put on your chadari [burqa],” one called out. “It is your last days of being out on the streets,” said another. “I will marry four of you in one day,” said a third."

www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/15/an-afghan-woman-in-kabul-now-i-have-to-burn-everything-i-achieved

Tweet by a RMSalih "Whatever you think of the Taliban their seemingly imminent victory is a historic deferat of colonialism and imperialism. This should be the main narrative rather than the RED HERRINGS ABOUT WOMENS RIGHTS ETC"

Attitudes and values are not going to change in this part of the World towards Women, so whether we are in or out of the country, it's a lost cause...

What it all really always comes down to, men controlling women... If women were in control, we wouldn't be in this fucking mess.

Female world leaders are really on another level...

Jasjas the afghan army was given both significant air force and heavy weaponry/artillery. Last generation US stuff that other countries would pay billions for. They had tons of black hawk helos. Guess who has them now? They didnt even bother to blow this shit up before surrendering

I am feeling sick at how awful things will be for women and girls there now. It is so desperately unfair. I wish I could get all of them out and give them somewhere else to live

I have to admit, but I also wondered how many of the men in the military truely object to Taliban rule, as in object enough to fight them. The fact they basically downed weapons en masse and didn’t take the fight indicates more is going on.

Of course there are many men who do object and are trying to flee. But these men have not yet been identified, as in were they at particular risk, but the reality is many are still going about their daily business, and the military didn’t try to stop the Taliban in any meanginful way.

You know, I don't really care for the tribal backwards mentality...

My main concern is the Afghan women and children whose futures are reduced to being married and being baby making machines for these disgusting Talibs.

There might be peace for a short time so that they can show that they have 'changed', but it will still have gone backwards and women will not have the freedoms they did just a few days ago...

You can arm and train people but changing deep entrenched mind set is much harder

I don’t think it’s just about supporting the Taliban it’s about deep rooted fear and mistrust if you fight against them one day they will kill you and your family so better off staying with the side that will get to you somehow if you don’t

Many know they are waiting to be executed neighbours will inform on each other to protect themselves families inform on each other to protect children it’s a truly horrendous way to live

250 aircraft they had

@Puzzledandpissedoff

Of course the Taliban hasn't changed

I wouldn't quite say that; fired up with insensate aggression and encouraged by recent "successes" it may well be that they've got even worse

The Middle east should have their right to their own laws, the ones most of their own people support without constant interventions from the West to control them

Quite right in principle; trouble is, it involves women continuing to be stoned, lashed, raped and worse, which upsets those in more developed nations and leads to cries of "somebody must do something"
A shame, then, that realistically there's little to be done

Except that invading their countries was not about saving women. It was about money, oil and control.'

If we are serious about "saving women" lets start with our own countries where domestic violence and date rapes are not even investigated.

www.aljazeera.com/economy/2021/8/16/as-the-taliban-seized-cities-they-sent-women-packing-home

But @LadyAria what are you doing about it? This is your country. We’ve, according to you, done a crap job in training your army and sorting out your country. Yet we need to go back and sort it out whilst you stay living outside Afghanistan?