Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

@StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind DH says that the individual Afghan soldiers have absolutely no loyalty to each other. Whereas a British soldier would risk their own life to save a wounded colleague - the Afghan soldiers don’t seem to have those same instincts. And how do you train that into someone? An army just doesn’t function when every man is completely out for themselves and you cannot trust the person next to you to have your back. Then there is the stealing. They will steal equipment to sell for themselves, even if that leaves their colleagues without the weapons they need to defend themselves. He says the more we give the more they steal, you couldn’t trust the majority of them to look after a stapler for you, let alone thousands of pounds worth of weapons. So unless the British were guarding all the depots or would all go missing. How can you say to a young soldier, “you must stand here and guard these weapons which the UK tax payer has funded because otherwise the very people we are trying to help will steal them for themselves and the army will be left with nothing to defend itself?”

Plus I'm not sure Biden would have followed through if he thought it would make him deeply unpopular.

It's odd to consider 20 years of women being able to go shopping on their own and girls being able to go to school as "a waste of time".

Did you want another 9/11?

But those who committed that atrocity were Saudis. I don't see our country cutting ties with them - too much money tied up with Arms sales to them.

Wanna that is the same as I heard from a soldier on radio 4 yesterday - none of them could be trusted ever out there -they will say one thing (eg we want a peaceful take over) but do another.
I am glad we are out. Obama took the initial decision followed by Trump and then Biden.

[quote shekamboo]@LadyAria I am also an afghan. Have you spoke to anyone back home because I do everyday and it's not a coincidence that everyone I have spoke to, is in no way concerned.

My auntie is a very educated woman as my cousins, they have all gone to work today in their offices.

Lots of business owners are happy, as my nephews shop was constantly getting ransacked and police wouldn't do anything because the thieves were lining their pockets.

I see social media from the west, but everything from the east is so telling.

My grandma here in London is crying but my auntie in Kabul tells her everything is fine. [/quote]
I'm having a hard time believing this shekamboo.

And the thousands of ghost soldiers, existing only on paper so that commanders could pocket the pay.

Surely though the Afghan people behave like that because that's their way to survive so that's a hard thing to change and more generational.

Trumps policy was to leave, the USA voting public rejected him, Biden had a choice

Don't make me laugh. American's foreign policy doesn't change much independently who is the White House, the people making the decision are Defence and those with the money to decide what's costing a foreign war to America and what's the benefit to them to sustain it.

Democrats and Republicans have "some" different political views on internal policy, NOT foreign policy.

Basically yes, in some ways. There has been 20 years when some of the country has been allowed to have rights, but this was always inevitable when the western armies pulled out. It would have happened 20 years ago if they hadn't gotten involved. It's horrendous, either way. Either having had this the last 29 years and never knowing different, or having it all ripped away from you now. There was never a chance of 'winning' pulling out has ensured that there is no chance of those used to certain basic human rights will ever get them again, and will not be systematically punished for ever having them.

Many that worked on that attack fled to Afghanistan peregrina.

I am well aware of that - the original aim of going in to Afghanistan was supposedly to get Bin Laden who was supposedly hiding out there. When he was eventually run to ground he was found in Pakistan. God knows how long he had been there.....

Obama, not Trump, was the one to announce withdrawal, then Trump continued the policy as has Biden. www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/15/obama-delay-withdrawal-us-troops-afghanistan

@Seeingadistance

I can’t stop thinking about the women and girls of Afghanistan. The horrors that they will be forced to endure and the desperate measures they’ll take to escape that fate.

That’s what I keep thinking about. My sisters in Afghanistan and I want to weep and scream and rage about what is happening to them.

I wonder how many people hand wringing about this inevitable act were the same people who were horrified that the Americans kept Taliban terrosists locked up at Guantanamo? They were released because of the opinions of a section of the public, what did people thing they would do? This was always an unwinnable war, unless the UN was willing to permanently place troops of all nations there, especially the Middle Eastern states. The weeping and screaming needs to be aimed at the perpetrators, the stone-aged Taliban and other extremists in every country.

[quote Xenia]Obama, not Trump, was the one to announce withdrawal, then Trump continued the policy as has Biden. www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/15/obama-delay-withdrawal-us-troops-afghanistan[/quote]
Just read that... Obama back tracked on his promise to cut troop numbers, he changed his view based on military reports on Taliban attacks & the strength of the Afghan forces.

Have another read of the article you linked too.

if you go in, you stay for as long as it takes.

For as long as it takes to do what?

[quote Xenia]Obama, not Trump, was the one to announce withdrawal, then Trump continued the policy as has Biden. www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/15/obama-delay-withdrawal-us-troops-afghanistan[/quote]
Which is what I've been saying - American foreign policy is not decided by a republican or democrat president. It's decided by the real power behind the presidency and only driven by American interests.

I found this (unverified) explanation quite interesting:

twitter.com/turningbones/status/1427148689387278340?s=21

Stay there forever training people you’d never, ever, turn your back on?

Afghanistan will bleed us dry if we let it and we’d still have Afghans who left their own country telling us we need to do more.

Then they should never have gone in. It didn’t stop the bombings. It didn’t stop Islamic terrorism. It didn’t stop Islamic fundamentalism. It has certainly not done the women and children there any good, they will be treated as collaborators. There will be worse to come.

It also did not stop the arms trade, or the drugs trade, or the poor attitudes of women across the world.

Get used to people asking what was it for.

Towards women.

To those asking why there are no women at the airport, google Tahrir Square to see what can happen to women when these situations become disorderly.

I believe, for comparison, that we still have army personnel in Germany?

We have 1 training area in Germany which we use for our large scale military exercises. We aren’t still there training their army and checking up on them 😂