Taliban enter Kabul

[tttigress]

I was in my early 20's when 9/11 happened, the last 20 years has been overshadowed by endless wars without clearly defined objectives (original point of going into Afghanistan was to "get" Al Qaeda, there was then massive mission creep)

AIBU to think the last 20 years in Afghanistan was a total waste of time?

[quote BELLAARA]@Stealbee

I'm inclined to agree. But since the western alliance has been in Afghanistan, their Government has been given those things and the support to enable what they weren't given.
Kabul is now unrecognisable from 20 years ago due to infra projects.
A family member did 4 tours of the country during the 'war' and although doesn't profess to be an expert he does confidently feel that Afghanistan as a collective, isn't ready or prepared to ascribe to the liberal values that the White West expects everybody else to want to (accepting that elements of the East uphold these principles too).
It seems another modern day case of 'bad' men wanting power and control and having a convenient and widely bought-into ideaology to hang it on.[/quote]
The Soviet Union / Russia is White, too, but not Western and they got their hands burnt badly in Afghanistan.

@stealbee - What you really mean is i disagree with you and tend to agree with the many military and regional experts who think this is a strategic and humanitarian mistake.

As to rest of your rant, well, thats your opinion and unlike the poor Afghans your happy to leave to their fate, your free to make it.

[quote jasjas1973]@stealbee - What you really mean is i disagree with you and tend to agree with the many military and regional experts who think this is a strategic and humanitarian mistake.

As to rest of your rant, well, thats your opinion and unlike the poor Afghans your happy to leave to their fate, your free to make it.[/quote]
You again, how delightful. I was referring largely to the statement that a super power, and earlier in thread mention of all those weapons, couldn't win. My opinion is that no, weapons alone weren't going to ensure success.

[quote BELLAARA]@Stealbee

I'm inclined to agree. But since the western alliance has been in Afghanistan, their Government has been given those things and the support to enable what they weren't given.
Kabul is now unrecognisable from 20 years ago due to infra projects.
A family member did 4 tours of the country during the 'war' and although doesn't profess to be an expert he does confidently feel that Afghanistan as a collective, isn't ready or prepared to ascribe to the liberal values that the White West expects everybody else to want to (accepting that elements of the East uphold these principles too).
It seems another modern day case of 'bad' men wanting power and control and having a convenient and widely bought-into ideaology to hang it on.[/quote]
Yes that's very true. I think the question of whether we should have gone in at all and whether the strategy we used was preferable to the things being alluded to earlier in the thread was what I was trying to say. Agree that they aren't ready, and essentially nothing is ever going to be successful because of that- not sure on the answer.

@osprey24

Broz I agree, the Afghan soldiers made the decision not to use the training and materiel they had been given by the US, UK and others. We can do no more.

Difficult though isn't it? when you are the very small surrounded Garrision, with no air and artillery support, nor any chance of re supply and the Taliban tell you "surrender or die"

The taliban have be killing anyone who fights then surrenders.

The afghan police/army were holding off the Taliban not because the 'west was doing the fighting but because of the support structure we provided, we took that away and the Afghan army collapsed, not a surprise surely?

I also think after a trillion dollars and the creation of a massive capable weaponised military, trained to hold their own country that it’s devasting that the Taliban met little to no resistance and the country fell within a week.

It’s the moral dilemma, if the west has trained them and weaponised them and know they are fully capable, how long do you stay in and do it for them. How long do you use tax payers money and risk western lives?

I agree the last twenty years have been wasted in this regard. As Biden said, if they can’t or won’t stand up to the Taliban then another year or five years will make no difference, make no mistake they have the capability. They simply have not done it.

@LadyAria do you not see the irony in you asking for more soldiers like DH to be sent back to Afghanistan when you have fled your own country, just like the President? You have put your safety and security above defending your homeland. But belt eve we should not put our safety and security above defending your homeland?

*believe, not belt eve.

@Stealbee Need to sleep and it takes time catching up :)

Try listening to the MPs heading up intelligence and foreign security committees, instead of your pro UK/US pr.

Tobias Ellwood is talking some good stuff.

www.amazon.com/Funding-Enemy-Taxpayers-Bankroll-Taliban/dp/1616146036?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

“With the vague intention of winning hearts and minds in Afghanistan, the US government has mismanaged billions of development and logistics dollars, bolstered the drug trade, and dumped untold millions into Taliban hands. That is the sobering message of this scathing critique of our war effort in Afghanistan.”

A very good book. Published nine years ago in 2012. Has a huge amount of first-hand reporting, and on-the-ground perspectives from soldiers and their higher-ups, NGO workers, politicians, Afghans... and so on. Trillions of dollars aren’t enough if you are making enemies if the people you’re trying to help and don’t have clear strategy.

[quote jasjas1973]@Stealbee Need to sleep and it takes time catching up :)

Try listening to the MPs heading up intelligence and foreign security committees, instead of your pro UK/US pr.

Tobias Ellwood is talking some good stuff.[/quote]
Not really sure what you're referring to now, but okay sure thing.

@LadyAria

‘The army is not sophisticated enough, they simply do not have the manpower or good enough training to fight.’

This is a lie and an effort to shift the blame. The Afghan Army has had 20 years of the best military training possible. It has billion of pounds worth of the exact same equipment that the British Army use. The manpower dwarfs that of the Taliban. And yet... DH has been in Kabul and has seen the weapons depots piled high with brand new, never used, equipment. He’s also come back to his office to find that the chairs have been stolen.

Again. You are not in Afghanistan, so I think you have a real nerve criticising those who have gone to your country and trained your Army to the absolute best of their ability.

Yes me too, unsure how you defeat what is largely an ideology, and how going in and using weapons against thousands of people when it's impossible to distinguish in certainty who is taliban would be preferable to trying to give the infrastructure, tools and knowledge to equip the country to fight for itself.

Yes the reality of it is difficult. I think the idea that a superpower can swoop in and if they didn’t they were not trying is not right. Twenty years - lost lives it wasn’t for show only.

On leaving. On whatever date people left it would have been swift. How would others suggest it might not have been so fast?

[quote Wannakisstheteacher]@LadyAria

‘The army is not sophisticated enough, they simply do not have the manpower or good enough training to fight.’

This is a lie and an effort to shift the blame. The Afghan Army has had 20 years of the best military training possible. It has billion of pounds worth of the exact same equipment that the British Army use. The manpower dwarfs that of the Taliban. And yet... DH has been in Kabul and has seen the weapons depots piled high with brand new, never used, equipment. He’s also come back to his office to find that the chairs have been stolen.

Again. You are not in Afghanistan, so I think you have a real nerve criticising those who have gone to your country and trained your Army to the absolute best of their ability.[/quote]
Yes good to get insight from people on the ground

The best thing that can happen to Afghanistan now is that China makes and entry through infrastructure projects. China is well on its way to expanding in southwest Asia. It’s a form of modern colonialism that comes with big bucks attached. At the very at least it will stabilize the tribal tensions if some economic prosperity is allowed to happen.

I take the point that as someone who wouldn't want to fight the Taliban or have loved ones do it Im not sure I can justify arguing that soldiers should stay.

Google how much of the uk does china own, it's sobering.

There is more than meets the eye here as always with international conflict.

surely the fact it collapsed so quickly shows it wasn't secure in the slightest. How would another 10 yrs prevent that?

It's a very interesting question that has been sparked in a very clear way by the Afghanistan and Iraq ventures. What is it about our culture that permits us to operate a system of liberal democratic politics that simply doesn't appear to work in these countries?

Ever since the Fukuyama thesis on the end of man people have kind of bought into the idea that democracy and liberal democratic society is the natural terminus of all cultures. Actually it's not- the democratic culture that the West largely enjoys is a product of it's own cultural historical drivers, principally amongst which I think is Christianity. For whatever reason, it certainly seems that you cannot impose these cultural models.

I personally think that they would have done better to find local war chiefs who were hostile to the Taliban and fund them until Bin Laden was dead. Or, if they were set on the invasion route, make Afghanistan the 53rd US state and control it directly, then there's no leaving. As for setting up friendly democratic governments it was never likely to work.

The US lost the war years ago. All they’ve been doing the last few years is air strikes, often killing multitudes of civilians in the process, something rarely if ever deemed worthy of reporting on in Western media.

@Hiddenmnetter

It's a very interesting question that has been sparked in a very clear way by the Afghanistan and Iraq ventures. What is it about our culture that permits us to operate a system of liberal democratic politics that simply doesn't appear to work in these countries?

Ever since the Fukuyama thesis on the end of man people have kind of bought into the idea that democracy and liberal democratic society is the natural terminus of all cultures. Actually it's not- the democratic culture that the West largely enjoys is a product of it's own cultural historical drivers, principally amongst which I think is Christianity. For whatever reason, it certainly seems that you cannot impose these cultural models.

I personally think that they would have done better to find local war chiefs who were hostile to the Taliban and fund them until Bin Laden was dead. Or, if they were set on the invasion route, make Afghanistan the 53rd US state and control it directly, then there's no leaving. As for setting up friendly democratic governments it was never likely to work.

More rooted in Roman and Ancient Greek culture, I believe.

Today 08:40 tynat

I take the point that as someone who wouldn't want to fight the Taliban or have loved ones do it Im not sure I can justify arguing that soldiers should stay.

Exactly. Do not ask others to do what you wouldn’t do yourself. DH has been very upset all day. He saw his friend shot to death by an Afghan police man they had trained. He saw his friend blown up by a bomb, hidden under a car in the middle of Kabul. We have tried. Really, truly we have tried and I’ll never see those efforts criticised by people who’ve fled and done absolutely nothing themselves to help their own country.

66,000 Afghan Police and Army have been killed fighting the Taliban, its not like they ve sat around waiting for the Taliban.

But it appears the Afghan army with air and supply support had little choice but to surrender.

@LadyAria I am also an afghan. Have you spoke to anyone back home because I do everyday and it's not a coincidence that everyone I have spoke to, is in no way concerned.

My auntie is a very educated woman as my cousins, they have all gone to work today in their offices.

Lots of business owners are happy, as my nephews shop was constantly getting ransacked and police wouldn't do anything because the thieves were lining their pockets.

I see social media from the west, but everything from the east is so telling.

My grandma here in London is crying but my auntie in Kabul tells her everything is fine.

@shekamboo Really they are not concerned about their future freedoms? Did they go to work unescorted by males and without wearing burkas? Has the Taliban changed?