To try CIO?

[Babymeanswashing]

I know it’s a contentious issue on here, but AIBU to try CIO on a nine month old?

Attitudes are variable. I don’t believe it will have her growing up like a child in a Romanian orphanage but my main worry is that it just won’t work and she’ll end up completely hysterical and still sleeping badly.

I’m eager to avoid her growing up a poor sleeper tbh.

Bear in mind I haven’t done it yet so don’t totally flame me!

I’m considering CIO and reading a lot of these responses makes me feel so bad. I’m at a loss of what else to do. I don’t feel safe to drive or be responsible for my two children. I struggle maintaining conversations or concentration. My baby is overtired and grizzly all day because he isn’t getting the sleep he needs. We’re stuck in a cycle of him needing lots of input to get to sleep, but it takes 1-2 hours every evening and both of us are desperately unhappy. I’m not sure I believe that if I leave him in the room to settle to sleep he’d feel abandoned. I think he knows now that his cot is where he sleeps and that’s what he needs to do. Just thinking out loud and wondering if all these people who call it cruel have been to the edges of insanity with a baby that won’t sleep.

And the ‘gentle’ methods of sleep training are only gentle if your baby likes them. My son flies into a rage if I sit in the room without patting him, rages if I pat him, rages if I pick up/put down, rages if I do timed intervals. I’m yet to find a gentle method, because essentially nothing gets him to sleep in the first place.

@Roundandround34

Don’t let responses from judgmental people who aren’t in your shoes change your own parenting decisions. They don’t live your life, and the evidence is absolutely on your side. You know what’s best for your child and children need to sleep.

I advise joining a sleep training group on Facebook, the respectful sleep training/learning group is excellent and has lots of advice and evidence based info in the files. Places like MN with a vocal minority of people shouting about how terrible it is can really destroy the confidence of a parent trying to find ways to help their baby sleep, while adding very little in the way of actual help.

@Roundandround34

Just thinking out loud and wondering if all these people who call it cruel have been to the edges of insanity with a baby that won’t sleep.

They tend to be people who’ve been lucky enough to have good or tolerable sleepers, or who found that gentle methods worked for them so they assume they work for everyone and anyone doing something different is in the wrong. There’s a real inability to put themselves in someone else’s shoes sadly.

Like the poster above who said they were able to cope with their poor sleeper because they’re a SAHM: that’s wonderful for them, but they fail to realise not everyone has that privilege. Many people need to function for work, or to be safe enough to drive for their older kids, or don’t have the mental or physical health to be able to physically cope with broken sleep for months or years on end. They’d think differently in that position but because they are lucky enough to have a set up where THEY can cope with bad sleep they presume others do too.

What’s ‘gentle’ differs between babies anyway as you say, the research shows it doesn’t really matter which method you choose (Ferber, extinction, disappearing chair etc.), they’re all methods of helping baby to learn to fall asleep independently and all equally effective and safe. What matters is consistency so pick something you can stick with!

A few nights of increased crying versus potentially tears of terrible sleep, an overtired child who can’t fall asleep without help, needs assistance through the night and overall cries far more when you add up the number of times they wake and cry for their parents... I hate to say it but I do think there’s an element of jealousy towards parents with good sleepers who’ve put the work in to achieve that. It must be horrendous having shit sleep for months or years and feeling like you can’t do anything about it but wait it out.

@Monday26July the respectful sleep Facebook group is just the other end of extreme. I am not against sleep training but that group of fucking awful and borderline abusive. It supports leaving newborns to cry it out and encourages crying it out for numerous consecutive hours no matter how distressed your child is. There was one post, which was when I left, where numerous posters were talking about leaving their little ones to scream and cry for 4/5/6+ hours straight almost boasting. There is a whole section basically stating that children only vomit during cio to be manipulative. I would not recommend that group.

I’ve been part of that group for over a year and thankfully don’t recognise any of what you’re saying, perhaps there is another with a similar name. Anyway I’d advise anyone to check it out for themselves.

@Monday26July Really?! Literally look at the units section and you will see the unit call ‘the dreaded vomit’ or something along those lines. I don’t know how you could miss those posts really.

One of the first posts that come up in google about that group is someone saying they got kicked off the group because the commented that leaving a three month old baby to cry for three hours is too much. They literally remove any comments along those lines and kick you out of the group.
Make up a post if you feel like it and see, you will only get supportive comments as all others will be deleted. Try ‘ I’m on day one of cio with my 8 week old (has been cleared by paediatrician to drop night feeds) and her cried for two hours. I’m not sure if I can face it when he wakes in the night.’ Or ‘ I am in night two of cio with my 8 month only, the first night he only cried for 90 minutes but tonight has already been three hours and I have had to go in to clean up vomit twice. He is really crying hard, should I go in?’ You won’t get a single comment telling you to go in and feed/cuddle your child.

Please don’t do CIO - if she’s used to waking regularly it’ll be so distressing for her.

My DS was a terribly bad sleeper. We did gentle controlled crying at 7 months. That worked wonders. I’d suggest that instead.

Look up some techniques. You put them down after usual bedtime routine in their cot awake, say a nice sleep cue, then leave. Stay nearby as she’ll cry, then go back in after two mins, talk to her briefly, say the sleep cue (with a positive tone in your voice) then leave again. She’ll cry, but leave it three minutes, then go back in again and repeat, then go in at four minutes, repeat, then five minute intervals until she falls asleep. Took my DS an hour of this on first night.

Repeat for three nights by which point she should get it.

@ShinyGreenElephant does anyone actually do that though? Shut the door and not look back for 12 hours. Surely that is neglectful to not check in on your child for half a day.

I think it’s tough because at what point does it become barbaric; according to 1940s description leaving a child to cry when they want comfort from you is, I did that earlier for a short while because I knew he wanted to go to sleep and how to get him to go to sleep. Like many things in parenthood we do even though it may upset them for their benefit eg vaccines, teeth cleaning and car seats. People need sleep, babies and adults alike, as an aside we have come a long way in the last 6 months, from 3+ hours every evening helping him to 2 minutes and then leaving.

I think I said in one of my earlier PPs, there was a point where he just decided he could do it now, there was no forcing. I’m pretty sure that is probably the same with most babies, at some point they’ll be developmentally ready. look at me all qualified after one baby hahahah

@3WildOnes that is absolutely fucking grim, I’ve asked to join the group because I want to see myself. I can’t actually believe anyone would want to sleep train an 8week old.

@FTEngineerM it is grim. They actually have separate groups for people who want to sleep train from newborn. So once you are in the main group you can invent a two week old baby and join that months separate newborn group too where you will also be supported to leave your two week old to cio.
I think will all things there needs to be some balance. Leaving a child to cry on and off but not hysterically for half an hour probably fine. Leaving a child to scream hysterically for hours sleep, ignoring them whilst they vomit multiple times is probably cruel.

[quote 3WildOnes]@FTEngineerM it is grim. They actually have separate groups for people who want to sleep train from newborn. So once you are in the main group you can invent a two week old baby and join that months separate newborn group too where you will also be supported to leave your two week old to cio.
I think will all things there needs to be some balance. Leaving a child to cry on and off but not hysterically for half an hour probably fine. Leaving a child to scream hysterically for hours sleep, ignoring them whilst they vomit multiple times is probably cruel.[/quote]
Ignoring a vomiting child is not probably cruel come on?!
It's absolutely horrifically cruel. If social services were a fly on a wall watching a parent leaving a child distressed and ignoring vomiting then they wouldn't give you a pat on the back.

Sometimes I think people want to play the 'cool' card and not judge and you do you hun whatever you need to do.

Leaving a child to cry themselves to vomit maybe more than once is child abuse.

@Monday26July thank you. It helped reading those messages. I did it tonight and he settled after 50 minutes. I went in twice in that time just to reassure him and tell him it’s time to sleep. He was crying but was more angry/protest than hysterical. At about 40 minutes he’d gone quiet and I could see he was trying to self settle. I hope this means a change can happen. He actually settled quicker than he would have if I was there as usual.

@1940s I was being facetious. I clearly think leaving a child to scream hysterically and ignoring them whilst they vomit is cruel, which is why I criticised the group mentioned upturead.
I work in children’s services, within a specialist services working with mothers and infants. Your right I never encourage a parent to leave a child to cry hysterically but I might suggest they give their child a few minutes to see if they settle and then judge if their cries are escalating in which case I would suggest they go in or calming down in which case I would suggest waiting a little while longer.

[quote Roundandround34]@Monday26July thank you. It helped reading those messages. I did it tonight and he settled after 50 minutes. I went in twice in that time just to reassure him and tell him it’s time to sleep. He was crying but was more angry/protest than hysterical. At about 40 minutes he’d gone quiet and I could see he was trying to self settle. I hope this means a change can happen. He actually settled quicker than he would have if I was there as usual.[/quote]
Good luck :) if you prefer the ‘Go in to reassure’ them method then Ferber is great. We did it at six months, worked within three or four nights. We’re a year down the line and he’s been an incredible sleeper ever since. Bed at 615pm, up at 7am, still has two good naps each day at set times. We really thrive on routine and he’s the happiest boy now he is getting good sleep. Recently he has started toddling off to his bed at nap time, getting his sleeping bag and handing it to me to put him down, it’s the sweetest thing to see. He absolutely loves sleep now! Hard work but as I’ve said before, the absolute best decision we’ve ever made as parents. Good sleep is so crucial to your quality of life, for all of you.

I've gently sleep trained all 5 of mine from very early on and as a result have had 5 very solid sleepers. No sign of any attachment issues and I have an adult child and teenagers so would have manifested by now if that were the case.

I honestly think the sleep training is bad is one of the worst pieces of modern parenting advice and actually causes severely sleep deprived adults and very poor sleeping children which affects their development and enjoyment.

I know she is hated here but I followed the Gina Ford routines just for (ish) timings of naps and made sure baby had enough to eat in the day. Then what happened at night happened at night- never ever left a baby to cry hysterically for 45 minutes or for any period of time. Mine have always been comforted if getting that way but they've never really got to that point because they're well rested in general and there's a difference between hysterical crying and then a moaning/ crying because they are trying to sleep and self settle.

We never had our babies downstairs watching tv all evening and then come up to bed with us and other than the first few weeks as a newborn, naps were generally in a dark room in their cot. We always wake for the day at 7am no matter how bad the night has been. Etc etc all of these things help establish a good sleep routine

OP - I would personally work on your daytime routine of eating and naps first rather than do CIO if baby does get hysterical and struggles to settle. At 6 months 2 naps should be sufficient - they are probably needing a 5-6 nap because they are so overtired but it's contributing to the problem. Really at 6 months probably need a shorter morning nap and then could you try to stretch the afternoon nap longer? If the 5-6 nap is genuinely needed then I'd be minded to make 6pm the actual bedtime and the. As you establish better sleep habits stretch it to7. Try a dream feed at 10:30 ish and then see how long baby can go without a feed in the night. As you say the milk all night is probably not helping your situation.

And while on the subject of CIO being damaging I think it's actually all the supposedly 'child led' advice about routines =bad which is damaging because it then ends up with desperate parents thinking about doing CIO and fractious over tired babies hysterically crying.

Never do I feel
More shit than when I haven't had enough sleep so why on earth is that different for babies? parents swooping in at the slightest whimper and not actively nudging babies into healthy sleep and routine habits contributes to this desperation

@FTEngineerM some people 100% do leave them all night and I totally agree its neglectful. Thats what CIO means isn't it- literally leave them to cry themselves to sleep? Of course I leave my babies to cry for a couple of minutes to see if they go back off. Thats normal. Letting them cry for 45 mins without going in is awful imo and full on CIO where you don't go in all night is absolutely vile. There are 100s of different ways to sleep train - I tried loads of gentle methods with dd2 but like you say I think she just got to an age when she was ready to sleep through. It was after she turned 2 but we got there. She still takes over an hour at least to go to sleep of a night and its a pain sometimes but I'd a million times rather that than let her cry herself to sleep. The other two I've never done any form of sleep training, they're just good sleepers and I'm very very lucky for that. Must be bloody awful to have three non sleepers!

@Handsoffstrikesagain

The people on that group are evil and bad mothers/fathers. Literally the shittest of parenting being displayed over there. Those babies could have reflux and be in agony lay flat, starving hungry, wind, anything. That is really distressing tbh and FB needs to ban it for encouraging abusive parenting practises.

Yet some posters here think it's an absolutely safe and valid option

A lot of the real extinction on babies less than 6 months happens in the US. I see much less of it here

But I'd agree it's child abuse. Why have a baby if you're going to let a newborn cry it out.

Shutting the door on newborns and leaving them to scream all night is worlds away from sleep training an older baby. No one I know who did CIO meant it in a shut the door and ignore for 12 hours way and definitely not let them cry until they vomit.

@ShinyGreenElephant I think maybe I’m being naive, in that case, because when I refer to CIO I think it’s what I do.. leave him for a few minutes to see if he goes to sleep. Once I left him 8 minutes because I had to answer the door. We’ve only really stopped co sleeping because I’m due no2 in 4 weeks.

I can’t actually envisage a parent leaving their child for hours/overnight.

That group has disappeared for me now and they haven’t accepted my request to join.