To ask for your real advice about deciding to have a third child

[ItsAllBlahBlahBlah]

We're at the point of deciding whether to ttc or not. I have a soon to be 4yo and an 18mo, same sex, in a three bed house with no desire to move house. Not rich (at all) but wouldn't consider us to be poor either. Both in stable jobs or as much as we know, but I did have health problems at the end of second pregnancy which meant I was off sick for the final few months (makes me nervous it was frowned upon), I needed c sections with both pregnancies. I'd love another baby but need to be sensible which is really tough! Had an early mc with unplanned preg back in Feb

Can you share your experiences please. Good and bad?

I'm due an unexpected DC3 any day now and some of these responses are making me nervous!

Honestly, the things that are causing me the most sleepless nights are:

• How am I going to fit 3 car seats in my car? I already drive a pretty chunky 4 x 4, but think I will need to upgrade to a 7 seater
• We only have 3 bedrooms - are the elder two (both boys) going to be ok sharing a room?
• If I'm tired running around after 2, how the f* am I going to cope with a newborn thrown into the mix
• My friends don't mind babysitting 2 kids - no one will want to take on 3
• We live overseas so (pre COVID) fly quite a lot. Paying for 5 people to fly half way around the world twice a year is not cheap
• Ditto holidays. Everywhere seems to be geared up for 2 adults, 2 kids
• Argh the expense. Our kids are in private school. Three lots of school fees (and then potentially uni fees) is no joke
• When will DH and I ever have time to ourselves again? At the moment I can cope for a few hours if he takes off to play golf and vice versa. Three kids by myself sounds full on

I stopped at two. Mainly bc DH (this was 20 years ago) was worried about environmental impact and booked himself fir the snip without much discussion. We also had two healthy DC and felt let's not push it.
A tiny last of me regrets it. I ah e two friends with three children and they can absolutely afford it, and seem to get on with life just fine.
So who's to know what's right?

@PrimeraVez yep. All those are bang on. Especially the one about people babysitting. 😭 And even worse, you stop getting invited places I noticed immediately.

But you get a new family member in the end so that will make you tolerate the shit.

Yeah, unfortunately (for you) I can't send the two I have back 🙈

It actually makes me a little bit cross when people use climate change as an argument in cases like this. Not because I don't think the threat of climate change isn't real - of course it is, and terrifyingly so. However to put the onus on an individual in this way, especially when the decision may have a huge impact on their happiness, is (and this is just my opinion) misguided. The major contributor to climate change is industry, and the government legislation (or lack of) that refuses to hold industry to account. The Carbon Majors Database report found that just 100 companies are responsible for 71% of global emissions since 1988. Now you could argue that the behaviour of individuals creates the demand that enable these companies to pollute. But in my mind, governments have the power to enact legislation to curb emissions but the political will to do it isn't there because of money-money-money and the lobbying that goes on. So it actually really benefits these major pollutors and their enablers for us to morally guilt trip individuals, rather than demanding that governments hold corporations to account. There are other ways that governments could help individuals to curb their impact, and that is by investing in energy efficiency: providing grants for making houses more eco-friendly with insulation, thermostats etc. So while I think individuals absolutely do have a part to play, their reponsibility to have fewer children, take fewer flights etc. etc. should sit alongside the political measures to control the emissions of corporations, rather than us guilt-tripping people over decisions on whether to have 2 or 3 children, while industry carries on polluting with impunity and political parties get the filthy lucre. For the record, I have 2 children....would have loved a 3rd but decided against it on age-related grounds - both my age (I was old by the time I had my first, and ancient by the time the second came along!), and because the age gap between all of them would have been too large for me to benefit in terms of them playing together and keeping each other company.

People do and will look after 3 kids. And you do still get invited to places.

I agree it is industry and governments who have the most power when it comes to combating climate change, but there's no denying that having multiple children is damaging to climate change too. And if you choose to have a 3rd/4th/5th child, you have to accept in your decisions to do so some people will view that negative and as selfish (which the OP has said she has considered).

Not just in terms of climate change but resources too, I dont have children, but if I had a child who was struggling to get assessed for autism or developmental problems and someones 4th or 5th child was taking up a slot that could have been my child, or I could not get my child into a primary school that I purposefully moved myself into the catchment area for because the school has to prioritize putting 3rd/4th siblings in the same school as their brothers or sisters, I would feel some level of resentment for that - I appreciate that may sound unfair and bitter, but again, its thinking about what impact your decision to have children has on others as part of weighing up the pros and cons.

There are 2 families both on opposite sides of the street to me who I know quite well through dog walking, one has 4 children, the other has 5. One has a 13 year old under CAMHs, the other as a young autistic child under services, one is epileptic so frequently having neurological appointments, one has behavioral issues and has 1-1 support at school. All 9 children are taking up spots in what is already an over subscribed school. They are all lovely and very loved children, and I wish them all the best and that they grow up to be happy and well, but if you take away the emotional element, these children aren't actually benefiting anyone but their parents desire to have a big family, and no matter how loved they are, you can not deny they are taking up significant resources which could be distributed more evenly.

I do understand what people are saying about viewing families with more than two children as selfish but I've never ever came across that. Is this something that's mumbled behind people's backs? Genuine question, as I have friends with 3 or 4 children and noone has ever said they've received any hostility about it

@Mreggsworth

Dear God.....are you saying that these children in particular aren't benefitting anyone but their parents because of their disabilities?! Meaning that other children without disabilities do benefit people other than their parents??? That is unbelievably crass! How on earth do you know who these children are benefitting, either now or in the future? I work with children with additional challenges and quite honestly I feel huge benefit by their existence in terms of how my work with them develops me as a human and as a professional. I mean, if you are talking about children generally, I can't really see how my own non-disabled kids benefit anyone other than me and their pa. And then looking to the future, the kids you mentioned may do amazing things in their lives and careers that benefit humanity, or they may end up being simply lovely people who make other people around them happy. I can understand the argument that no kids really benefit anyone other than the families who love them, but to suggest that kids with additional challenges are somehow a net loss for society is pretty piss poor.

@KazenoTaninoNaushika I took it to mean additional children at all, as opposed to targeting children with disabilities (hope so anyway)

@ItsAllBlahBlahBlah

I do understand what people are saying about viewing families with more than two children as selfish but I've never ever came across that. Is this something that's mumbled behind people's backs? Genuine question, as I have friends with 3 or 4 children and noone has ever said they've received any hostility about it

Yes, for sure. There are plenty of threads showing it on MN. I wouldn’t say it to someone’s face if they were showing me their 3rd/4th etc child but I would definitely be thinking it and if they just mentioned that they were considering it as you are I would say to them that it is selfish from an environmental standpoint. To be honest I probably would consider distancing myself from a friend who chose to have more than two children because it would show a pretty clear difference in our values ie that they don’t really care about the environment.

@KazenoTaninoNaushika

It wasn't a comment on disabilities being less valuable than other children at all, but services available and how they are stretched. I was referring to all children taking up services and resources not just the disabled children. The services for disabled / unwell people are stretched, therefore the more people who have children the more stretched those services will become meaning not everyone can get the support they need. I've read it back and I cant think of anywhere I suggested that a disabled child is less valued than a non disabled child . All children take up resources, and if I had a child who had special needs but I couldn't get them support because someones 4th child was taking up a spot on the waiting list - I'd feel resentful for that.

I said non of the 9 children are benefiting anyone put the parents desire to have a big family, not just the disabled children. They all may grow to do great things, but statistically they wont.

The mention of disabled children was literally just to be mindful of resources and what resources your child may take up, be that schools, nurseries, mental health or medical support.

@PattyPan

Thats crazy. You wouldn't be friends with someone who had never been abroad. Had solar power that the government pay them for because they produce so much. Are vegan. Only buy clothes from charity shops and don't drive. Because they had 3 children?

But you would hang around with some one who flys monthly for work, eats meat 2 times a day, lives in a house that's tok big for them and buys new clothes and house stuff every week but only has 2 children.

Honestly. You're a fucking idiot.

@Iusedtobesoooomuchfun obviously I wouldn’t be friends with the second person because their behaviour still shows that we have opposite values. I wouldn’t automatically drop the first person but I would think they were an idiot who couldn’t do maths if they thought that stuff would cancel out the resources needed for an additional person’s whole life.

@Mreggsworth

I apologise if I've put a meaning to your words that wasn't intended; I read into it something you obviously didn't mean and I'm sorry :-)

@PattyPan
But you're honestly saying you couldn't be friends with someone with 3 children?

What if one of your children become friends with a 3rd child? Would you make them stop being friends with them?

@ItsAllBlahBlahBlah

I do have a few friends and family members who have more than 2 children, in all honesty in real life I wouldn't be anywhere near as opinionated on the subject. I would not tell them my opinions unless asked, and if asked I would not say it is selfish but I'd suggest considering the environmental impact. I wouldn't risk straining a friendship over this topic by being overly judgemental on the subject but I would want people to be aware that I have my concerns....but yes there may also be the odd behind the back bitchy comment, but I think that is just part in parcel with motherhood and parenting decisions anyway so not point worrying about that.

@KazenoTaninoNaushika

No worries

Ive got two teenagers. I wouldn't have three. I'd struggle with guilt of the environmental impact of bringing more than 2 people into the world. I'd struggle with the cost of more than two. Feeding 4 adults is expensive. I'd rather do 2 well than spread myself and resources thin for 3.

Thanks, it's honestly something I've never come across but if there's reason to think my children would be targeted by any kind of hostility as a result of my decision it's a no from me from the off. All of my children (2 or 3) are very much wanted by us so I'd hate for them to question beyond that.

Lots to think about. We've had a chat last night and it's proving tricky. We both definitely WANT another baby (child) , it's realising of its the right thing to do on about 20 different levels.

I have 4 so 3 seems a doddle now. I don’t think it’s that much different a bit more juggling here and there but no biggie. The Uk birthrate is really low so I wouldn’t be too concerned about the environmental reasons.

@Iusedtobesoooomuchfun no I wouldn’t stop my child being friends with someone from a bigger family. I wouldn’t stop them being friends with the children from your polluting example either - the kids don’t make those decisions. But would I choose to become friends with these children’s parents myself? Maybe not.

@ItsAllBlahBlahBlah I wouldn’t say or think anything about the children - it’s not their fault. It’s the parents that made the decision so they’re the ones that get the judgement.

OK @PattyPan I appreciate your comments, thanks. I am having a search through mumsnet for some previous threads