To ask Aquarium to put a radar lock on the disabled toilet

[Worrysaboutalot]

We went to a large aquarium centre today for DC2’s birthday. It was very busy with many families enjoying the centre. We had a great day out

As I am in a wheelchair, I have no choice in which bathroom I can use, I had to use the disabled toilet.

I had to wait until a mother and a couple of younger kids came out of the disabled toilet which surprised me. As it looked unlikely that any of the younger kids would need nappies.

Then I went in this was a dedicated disabled (not accessible) toilet with no baby change facilities! I do understand that the first mother might have an invisible disability, as might her children. So thought no more on it.

All the time I was in, the door handle was being rattled and I kept calling out that the toilet was occupied, which was frustrating.
When I left and an impatient mother with a pram was waiting to go in. I told her that there was no nappy changing facilities in that toilet, assuming she wanting to change the baby. But she snapped at me that she was a mother and had to use this toilet gesturing to the pram.

I felt that this second mother was just entitled and rude. Having a pram doesn’t entitle you to use a disabled toilet. Use the end toilet in the women’s bathroom, with the door open and the pram in the toilet doorway, like everyone else does.

Years ago, I had 4 kids under 6yo at one stage and I never used the disability toilets, except for the baby changing ones for baby changing purposes.

Therefore, AIBU to have asked the aquarium centre to add a radar lock to the bathroom. AS this was the ONLY disabled toilet, and the baby change facilities were separate. To increase the likelihood of ringfencing these limited facilities for those who actually need them, rather than those people who want to use them.

I have had people challenging us - even with a clearly displayed badge - when we park in the disabled spaces because we both look young and healthy.
I agree with a pp that the move towards calling disabled toilets accessible toilets and not questioning those who use them has been because of this issue and I think it was done with good intentions but has led to the situation where people think that they are now for anyone who has any issue with access. It's true that a few years back on MN posters would have been flamed for even looking at a disabled toilet now its totally different. To be honest I think there could be a tiny bit of flexibility for example if someone has a medical condition that isn't a recognised disability but not to the extent that everyone with a pram can use the one disabled toilet in a busy venue.

People are being very harsh on the OP and demonstrating the point perfectly.
There are large numbers of numbers of mothers with prams and by comparison fewer disabled people. The level of entitlement is astounding.
It’s not about the fact that people do use but that they feel that it’s their right.
Just admit that you do it because it’s ‘easier’.

@IceandIndigo

Serious question, how do all the people arguing mums should be able to use disabled toilets freely feel about disabled parking spaces? If you’re in a carpark and you can’t find another free spot, do you think it’s fine to take the only disabled spot? If not, why are disabled toilets different?

Also, correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the reason that disabled toilets had been renamed “accessible” toilets was to acknowledge that some disabilities are hidden (since some people think disabled means a wheelchair user) not because anyone who wants to can use them.

Using the bathroom is a bodily necessity. Parking your car isn't. So no, I would never park in a disabled spot, baby with me or not.

[quote Lumpwoody]@Innocenta if you were behind me in a queue for the disabled toilet. And I don’t use a chair but you do. Would you expect to go in front of me?[/quote]
I definitely wouldn't expect to go in front of you! And I've said similar things multiple times in this thread. People are, intentionally, distorting my real view. I've explicitly said multiple times that I think people with invisible disabilities have a right to use the disabled loo; I really can't help it if people lie about what I've said!

[quote Kanaloa]@Innocenta

So you didn’t refer to invisible disabilities as made up bs? Was that another poster?

You didn’t suggest that those who are mobile but with disabilities should use the public toilets rather than disabled?

People disagreeing with your opinion aren’t making false claims. People disagreeing with you aren’t ‘expressing hatred.’ They just have a different opinion. I don’t agree with you, but I haven’t falsified anything that you’ve said at all.[/quote]
You are literally making false claims.

I've stated many, many times that I think people with invisible disabilities have a right to use the disabled loo. I'm not even opposed to parents using it if they must.

You are maliciously distorting what I've said and inventing things I have not said. The words "made up bs" are not something I would ever say or think about invisible disability. I was invisibly disabled from age 0-21 myself.

@Givemebackmylilo I’m not sure I follow your reasoning. If toilets are more essential than car parks surely it’s even more important that a disabled person can access them and not be prevented by non-disabled users?

@3cats4poniesandababy

Most parents with prams don't use accessible toilets by choice. I have done and will continue to use the accessible toilet when the need arises. If I am with my husband or a friend I leave my pram and baby with them not I am not going to compromise my child's safety, my safety or my dignity.

If places legally had to provide a pram sized room with a lock and a toilet in it then I 100% promise you in 90% if places they will add a badge to the disabled toilet. In the other 10% quite a few of them will already have family toilets.

Also maybe that mother had a hidden disability but didn't want to tell some stranger all about it......

I fully understand having a disability and being in a wheelchair will give you challenges in life but equally other people have challenges. I have PTSD. That gives me massive anxiety around my child especially not being there for my child which makes it hard for me to not know my child is okay. Yes I will use the accessible toilet and if you challenge me I am likely to say pram rather than tell some stranger who thinks it is their right to know all of my medical history.

Your post resonated with me quite strongly. Especially when you refer to challenges that we all face that no one can know about. Which might explain why some of us are appalled at the suggestion we should sacrifice our human dignity and have a door wide open while we use a toilet; or leave our baby on the other side of a door where we can't see them. The very idea of either of these things fills me with unimaginable anxiety. But according to some, my anxiety matters not at all.

@Innocenta so what did you mean when you said this

However, in this thread people are constantly insisting that wheelchair users have no increased or extra necessity of using the disabled loo.

By virtue of being in a wheelchair how is your necessity of using the disabled loo increased over mine and how do you ascertain that by looking at me?

@Innocenta

You didn’t say ‘made up bs?’ Perhaps I am mistakenly quoting another poster oh this thread! Apologies if so, but I was very sure it was you referring to people’s made up bs. I will see if I can find it, possibly it was someone else.

Also @Innocenta. This. You said. This.

If you can walk into the regular loos, then it literally cannot be an equivalent need.

I can walk into the regular loos

I can’t, however, lower and raise myself onto the toilet. Without handrails.

So. You expect me to walk into the regular loos and what? It’s not an equivalent need to you - you literally said. That.

@Lumpwoody

So according to innocenta my need is lesser than hers to use a disabled toilet? Who put you in charge? How dare you judge others with disabilities and apply some spurious made up criteria you made up by yourself.

I hate having to use disabled toilets. Parking spaces. Because I’m always not quite disabled enough. And I should be able to go into the ordinary loo use an ordinary parking space.

Except. I got a blue badge. Because I can’t. I got a radar key because I can’t. And I don’t understand why some ransomed would think they know better than the specialist I see

Again, you are fabricating.

Chair users have different, specific needs. We are a defined subset of disabled people, and the astonishing aggression that merely stating this material reality incurs only proves how pervasive ableism is.

None of that means I think people with invisible disabilities shouldn't have access to disabled loos. I have personally encouraged multiple friends (and a few strangers in online groups) to get radar keys. I have often shushed people with me who have been judgmental about disabled loo users who don't 'look disabled'. I was invisibly disabled myself from age 0-21.

I have also reiterated several of these points multiple times in this thread, only to see my position deliberately distorted again and again and again.

[quote IceandIndigo]@Givemebackmylilo I’m not sure I follow your reasoning. If toilets are more essential than car parks surely it’s even more important that a disabled person can access them and not be prevented by non-disabled users?[/quote]

No. If toilets are a necessity, which they are, and assuming that both 1) keeping one's right to human dignity intact, and 2) keeping one's baby safe and within full view are also both necessities (which in most people's view, they are), then mums with prams literally have no other alternative in some places, than to use the disabled toilet. However, if a mum with a baby arrived at a full car park and saw only a disabled one available, she doesn't have the same immediate need to fulfil as using the toilet, therefore she can wait for a space, or go to another shop. If there is no viable alternative to the toilet situation for a mum with a baby that meets the above conditions, she has no choice.

@Kanaloa for a lot of disabled people they do need car parking to be able to access the same spaces as able bodied people. That’s basically the whole reason why disabled spaces exist.

You literally said I should walk to the ordinary loos.because my need isn’t “equivalent” (read. Lesser)

What should I do then? Shit myself? Because you’ve decided my need isn’t “equivalent”?

[quote Lumpwoody]@Innocenta so what did you mean when you said this

However, in this thread people are constantly insisting that wheelchair users have no increased or extra necessity of using the disabled loo.

By virtue of being in a wheelchair how is your necessity of using the disabled loo increased over mine and how do you ascertain that by looking at me?[/quote]
You're making an unreasonable assumption about my wording - that by 'wheelchair users' I mean all wheelchair users, and that by referencing ambulatory disabled people as a group, I am assuming identical ability levels for all.

For example - I have many friends who are ambulatory wheelchair users, use a chair part-time, and could walk into the regular loos if desperate. I cannot, in every single reference to chair users, also allude to this specific subgroup. But it doesn't mean I'm unaware of them or don't care about them.

Equally, I know people who have a genuine, extremely specific requirement to use the disabled loo, that genuinely cannot ever be met by using the regular one - to the extent that, like a wheelchair user, they would urinate or defecate on themselves if they could not access the correct loo. However, this is not the typical norm for ambulatory disabled people.

You are choosing to react with this degree of hostility, even though I've already specifically clarified that I would never personally expect to queue jump in front of someone with an invisible disability (and in fact, this has even been offered to me).

So maybe have a think about why you feel the need to be so abusive to a severely disabled person opening up about their intimate needs online. It doesn't reflect well on you.

That passive aggressive diatribe does you no favours.

You literally said I should walk into the ordinary toilets. Because I can.

Perhaps you might want to reflect on your discriminatory attitudes and where you get the right to judge others from?

@Justrealised I'm making a total hash of trying to make this point.

I worked for Mencap for five years I understand that some people require assistance out and about.

That isn't the same as someone who could manage by themselves being told that if they don't have a companion they shouldn't be allowed to access a toilet.

That as a single person they have no right to expect access to a toilet.

No one for example offers a companion ticket for single mothers so that they can access toilet facilities yet it was suggested that they should have a companion if they wanted to use the loo.

My poorly made point was that it wouldn't be ok to say someone who is disabled
"yes, you can use a loo by yourself but because you are disabled you need a friend with you"
And it isn't ok to say that to a single mum either.
There is an accessible space that both the people above can use.

@Lumpwoody

You literally said I should walk to the ordinary loos.because my need isn’t “equivalent” (read. Lesser)

What should I do then? Shit myself? Because you’ve decided my need isn’t “equivalent”?

See my other reply for a full response. But no, it is not an identical need, and I'm confused at to why you are so insistent that it is.

Have you read the posts from chair users in this thread about equipment costs? To wet or soil a chair is to damage an item of equipment that regularly costs over £2000, sometimes far, far more. Some components might need to be completely replaced. The disabled person might be unable to go out or even to move around their home easily while the repairs are undertaken.

That is just one difference. Why is that so hard to acknowledge? Nobody should ever, ever be put in a position of not having loo access. I have zero problem with invisibly disabled people using the disabled loo.

But it's still not the same experience.

@paddlingon

I completely agree. I find it shocking that it has been suggested that parents with no other adult help to support with their baby at that point in time should either leave their baby unattended or use a toilet with a door open. Or just don't go out unless accompanied. I find that discriminatory, in all honesty.

@Innocenta

Now I look I believe it was another poster who used the phrase ‘made up bs.’ I confused you with that poster because you had similar views on wheelchair users, apologies for that! I was reading quickly while trying to cook and got two posters confused, got to me as I’ve frequently heard these things about my invisible disability.

I still disagree that wheelchair users have any right to disabled toilets over others, although I agree that many people physically could use the regular toilets it’s not our job to decide.

@IceandIndigo

Not sure what point you’re making? I agree that disabled people need their own car parking spaces, they are usually closer to the entrance so those with disabilities can get inside more easily. I said if I arrived somewhere and there was only disabled car park spaces I would circle around or just go somewhere else.

You didn’t say it wasn’t the same experience.

You said my need wasn’t equivalent.

That’s bullshit. I’ve every bit as much right to use the disabled bathroom as a chair user. Regardless of whether or not I could walk into the ladies.

Not RTFT, but you might see me (36 able bodied) going in a disabled toilet with my 12 and 9 year old boys (also able bodied). I can assure you we have good reason to be in there.

What I mean is although some people could physically walk into a toilet/wouldn’t ruin expensive equipment it doesn’t mean they should use the regular toilet or should feel bad using the disabled toilet.

@Kanaloa

What I mean is although some people could physically walk into a toilet/wouldn’t ruin expensive equipment it doesn’t mean they should use the regular toilet or should feel bad using the disabled toilet.

This.

@Kanaloa

What I mean is although some people could physically walk into a toilet/wouldn’t ruin expensive equipment it doesn’t mean they should use the regular toilet or should feel bad using the disabled toilet.

I agree. No one who needs it should feel bad using the disabled toilet.

That can co-exist with acknowledging that people's needs are different. It doesn't mean anyone has to not be allowed.