To ask Aquarium to put a radar lock on the disabled toilet

[Worrysaboutalot]

We went to a large aquarium centre today for DC2’s birthday. It was very busy with many families enjoying the centre. We had a great day out

As I am in a wheelchair, I have no choice in which bathroom I can use, I had to use the disabled toilet.

I had to wait until a mother and a couple of younger kids came out of the disabled toilet which surprised me. As it looked unlikely that any of the younger kids would need nappies.

Then I went in this was a dedicated disabled (not accessible) toilet with no baby change facilities! I do understand that the first mother might have an invisible disability, as might her children. So thought no more on it.

All the time I was in, the door handle was being rattled and I kept calling out that the toilet was occupied, which was frustrating.
When I left and an impatient mother with a pram was waiting to go in. I told her that there was no nappy changing facilities in that toilet, assuming she wanting to change the baby. But she snapped at me that she was a mother and had to use this toilet gesturing to the pram.

I felt that this second mother was just entitled and rude. Having a pram doesn’t entitle you to use a disabled toilet. Use the end toilet in the women’s bathroom, with the door open and the pram in the toilet doorway, like everyone else does.

Years ago, I had 4 kids under 6yo at one stage and I never used the disability toilets, except for the baby changing ones for baby changing purposes.

Therefore, AIBU to have asked the aquarium centre to add a radar lock to the bathroom. AS this was the ONLY disabled toilet, and the baby change facilities were separate. To increase the likelihood of ringfencing these limited facilities for those who actually need them, rather than those people who want to use them.

@WiddlinDiddlin

These threads come up over and over, pitting non-disabled parents against disabled people.

I've said this before and it's been totally ignored - why not create a Mumsnet led campaign to get provision of parent/child toilets that are accessible to prams, separate from the disabled accessible facilities, made a requirement for such places.

I know the answer, its because there is no bloody need is there, you can just use the disabled loo, why make the effort, after all its only going to be a few years that you use the pram for...

I mean how dare disabled people want a toilet facility that is a protected space just for them.... how dare they not want that protection eroding by being forced to share it...

Mm.

I don't think people even realise that - for a full time chair user - the chair itself often costs thousands of pounds.

Not only is it just as humiliating for a wheelchair user to wet or soil themselves as it would be for a parent, but having an accident risks substantial damage to an expensive item of equipment that is necessary for any participation in public life. Any adult would be humiliated and distressed by this, and no one should ever be put in such a situation (whether a led or disabled, parent or not). But - again - there are some straightforward, material differences for wheelchair users.

9K chair.
£470 cushion. It does not have a soil-proof cover on because those are like sitting in a sweat bath after a few minutes.

I have been repeatedly asked if I can just leave it unattended and pop using my stick to the ladies.

Fuck no, as if!

I once had to leave my other chair (13K) around a corner at a restaurant - came back to it to find some kid playing with it whilst their parent watched, beaming with delight that their child was entertained. When I said 'erm, excuse me?!'... I got a shameless 'Oh he's only having fun!'.... Oh well thats ok then!

"Or even claims that their perspective as a parent of a disabled child has equal or greater weight than that of someone like me who actually lives this experience."

The parent of the child knows better than anyone else what their own child requires. That does not mean they are disputing what anyone else requires.

Not every disability requires a wheelchair, so for that reason, YABU. For questioning someone, YABVU.

I am disabled with a disabled child but they are invisible and I would be beyond fucked off if someone grilled me.

@Worrysaboutalot

Quite a few beaches now have free loan beach wheelchairs, I can also recommend cruises (expensive I admit) as they are set up for those with mobility issues, the line I use has scooters, you can take your own chair and will even provide portable hoists plus beach wheelchairs for beach days.

@Sleepyblueocean

"Or even claims that their perspective as a parent of a disabled child has equal or greater weight than that of someone like me who actually lives this experience."

The parent of the child knows better than anyone else what their own child requires. That does not mean they are disputing what anyone else requires.

I realise you think that you are right and that you are helpfully advocating for your child, but it really is not as simple as that. The attitude you have is something that many within the disabled community find problematic and upsetting. I don't think it would be productive to pursue the topic here, but I would encourage you to read the writings of disability activists, especially those who address the challenges of centring parents as a substitute for disabled children.

I understand you are coming from a place of love for your child, and I respect that, but when you behave as if you have full comprehension of what the personhood of being disabled or living in a disabled body is like - you are actually not helping him either. It is in his interest, too, for disabled people to be listened to and valued in our own right, not to need abled people to speak for us.

Wishing you and your child the best, and I sincerely mean it about encouraging you to read further on this topic.

I knew you would have that opinion.I'm not a 'special needs parent' or 'autism mom', I spend all day every day trying to interpret my son's moods and behaviours, trying to work out what he wants and trying to see as far as I possibly can, the world from his eyes. I read and listen to people who have disabilities in common with him to try to further understand. I do not claim to live his experience. I also think to the future and what is most likely to make him happy as an adult, what he would want if he could tell me.

From what you have said you don't know much about his needs. You don't understand he needs the space of a disabled toilet. You personally could not speak for him. For now I am the person who knows him best so that is my role. In time it will pass to others and I hope they will do what I do and try to work out what it is that he wants.

@Legomania

Re the door rattling - the vacant/occupied indicators are notoriously unreliable and whereas in normal cubicles you can ususally hear/see if it's occupied, it's often not the case for the disabled loo. I've stood like an idiot more than once waiting for an empty loo to become free as I've been too British to try the door.

It's usually perfectly possible to try the door quietly without rattling it.

Which buggies fit in ordinary sized toilet cubicles and are appropriate for small babies? I haven’t seen any like this,

Me neither. Not without collapsing them down which defeats the object as then you still have nowhere to put the baby while you use the toilet.

Also what do mothers of twin babies do? Or two at pushchair age? Even if you found a single pram suitable for a newborn that fits into a standard toilet cubicle (which I'm highly sceptical even exists), what do you do with more than one child in a buggy? So mother's of multiples just not need to wee when out and about?

@sofiegiraffe

It turns out the pp who said the ‘obvious solution’ was to buy a buggy that fit in the cubicle, like she did, actually didn’t do this at all. She used a sling, then linked to a buggy that is both unsuitable for small babies and still wouldn’t fit in an average toilet cubicle without being collapsed.

That last sentence should have been "Do mothers of multiples just not need to wee when out and about?"

[quote Kanaloa]@sofiegiraffe

It turns out the pp who said the ‘obvious solution’ was to buy a buggy that fit in the cubicle, like she did, actually didn’t do this at all. She used a sling, then linked to a buggy that is both unsuitable for small babies and still wouldn’t fit in an average toilet cubicle without being collapsed.[/quote]

Ah. Thought as much.

@Kanaloa I saw the link to the alleged suitable buggy - Its for older children not small babies.

ColdandFrosty1 ”But when I see how excited he got when he saw the sunflower we'd been growing all summer had bloomed, I realised its not the trips out and adventures that matters but the time spent together doing simple things also makes him just as happy.”

Aww, thank you. It is hard as my back wheel on my wheelchair spilt open on the way out of the aquarium yesterday and the other back wheel is very badly worn too. So now I am facing several days being house bound until my DH sorts it out a new set of wheels for me.
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PurpleMustang ”You will no longer visit the aquarium because you can't guarantee a human maybe using it the second you need it? What if you get there, try the door and low and behold a disabled person is in there?”

If a disabled person is in the toilet before me, then I am likely to have an accident and I will change into my spare clothes and a clean pad when I can get into the toilet. If it happens a second time, I go home with the children to clean up and change into a third set of clothes. Day out would be cancelled.

However the number of people entitled to use the disabled only toilet (not accessibility and no changing facilities) with a radar key is relatively low and therefore the chances of accidents is also low. Maybe a dozen people in the centre at any one time?!

Whereas the number of parents and children at the centre is very high (around 90%), if the toilet remains free for all AKA unlocked. I have a very high risk of multiple accidents, whilst all parents with a pram OR parents of multiple children use the disabled toilet. Hence, I will not return whilst the risk of multiple accidents remains AKA one disabled toilet with a radar lock installed.
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All posts about needing changing facilities
This was a toilet and sink only. No nappy changing facilities in this disabled toilet. Although clearly space on the floor to change if needed. Though far from ideal, however with older kids I guess there would be no other option. There was a separate nappy changing room for smaller kids. Shame there are not more changing places in these big tourist attractions.
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All posts about invisible disabilities
Yes, I have one and understand other people have them too. No judging on this at all. Of course this group of people and/or children are entitled to use the disabled toilet and this is on a first come first served basis. Although I would wave a kid ahead of me, unless I had already had an accident.
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People can buy a radar key and go in anyway.
When you buy an official radar key you are self-certifying that you (or your child) have a mental or physical disability requiring access to disabled toilets.

Yes, you can buy unofficial radar keys and misuse the system but that doesn’t make what you are doing right. No one can plan for people misusing the system.

Same goes for parents with prams who refuse to fold for wheelchairs and those people who park in blue spaces without their own valid blue badge. All these people are not doing the right thing and, in some cases, an illegal thing.
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Why I spoke to the second mother
Had the disabled toilet contained baby change facilities, I would have said nothing and assumed that the mother was going to change her baby.

Had the mother been on her own or with young but likely to be toilet trained children. I would have assumed one of them needed the disabled toilets for an invisible disability. Just like I assumed of the first mother and her children. I would have said nothing.

I only spoke, nicely to tell her that the toilet didn’t have nappy changing facilities. She volunteered the information that she HAD to use this toilet because she was a mother and gestured to the pram. I said nothing further, just re-joined my family.
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Being filmed in the women’s toilet
DanielTigersMummy2
“All these people on here saying they used to pee with the door open when DC were little, presumably didn't have children at a time when everyone has a phone with a camera on them at all times.”

Disabled toilets being unisex, have a lot higher chance of having cameras hidden in them. I was reading an article about this. So if you are concerned about being filmed you should avoid disabled toilets.
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Empathy for mothers
I am interested in the accusations of not having empathy for mothers! Of course, I have empathy for mothers. I am a mother and I have real lived experience of many experiences posted on this thread. However, the difference is I also had empathy for disabled people which is why I never misused disabled toilets. I have only used them this past year, as my wheelchair means I must use those disabled toilets and I need the support bars as well.
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Using the end cubical with an ajar or open toilet door in the women’s toilet

I AM a mother of 4 children. I had 4 under 5 years old at one stage. This was my choice and I love the fact they are close in age. I also had an invisible IBD AKA Bowel disease and developed a further auto immune bowel problem too whilst the children were young.

I had to knock on stranger’s doors in our villages, asking to use the bathroom. Leaving at their front door a double P&T buggy with a baby and 2yo in it. My 4yo on reins clipped to one side of the buggy and my 6yo holding onto the other side of the buggy. Hardly ideal or safe but needs must! Luckily our village is very friendly and understanding.

I didn’t have the luxury of being able to wait. So whilst food shopping or at the park, I would use the women’s toilets with the kids in tow. In the women’s toilets I always went to the furthest unoccupied toilet cubical. If I had all four kids with me and felt the toilet was safe. I would leave the pram next to the toilet cubical door. Baby and toddler stay in the pram and the oldest two held (and clipped in the 4yo case) to the pram and both the 4yo and 6yo would stand and slid one shoe under the toilet door, so I could see they were there.

If the older two were at nursery/primary school. I would either sling baby and take toddler in the cubical with me. Or if they were in the double buggy I would have the pram facing me and wedged into the cubical with the door closed as much as possible.

Yes, I was often heavily bleeding, post birth and coping with third degree tears and running poo and I still didn’t use the disabled toilets. I did this for years (the heavy periods, moon cup wipe with toilet roll and reinsert and the running poo, clearly the post birth injuries mainly healed over time) and never once did I assume that I was entitled to use the space in the disabled toilets, except the changing facilities.

I avoided disabled toilets, as I was on the toilet so long. It was noisy and very fowl smelling, I didn’t want to block them for a ‘real disabled person’ which in hindsight was a bit daft. As who would begrudge someone suffering bowel disease using the disabled toilet when they needed too.

So I have lived through a lot of the experiences mentioned by fellow mothers, yet I never took a space needed by a disabled person. I knew it would be wrong of me to do that when I chose to have children. Plus, this was only a real problem for the first 10 years. Once they were 4,6,8,10. I could trust the 10yo to hold hands/reins of the 4yo and all four kids did ‘shoes’ under the door of my cubical. So I knew they were all close and not messing around in the bathroom or leaving it!
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So to the mothers who still use intend to use disabled toilets. No one can stop you doing it, but I want you to remember that by making your lives easier, you are stopping another mother like me, from going out at all!

You are keeping my children (who are still fairly young) cooped up at home every day, as I can’t afford to pay for a day out when I can’t go to the toilet in a timely manner.

Your kids get to enjoy their summer but your actions keep my kids home bored and upset. I hope you think of my kids when you just nip into a disabled toilet.

You have other options. Read my suggestions above and if you want help with buggy suggestions I would highly recommend a folding inline double like a Phil and Ted with a new born cocoon and a sling in the nappy bag helps in so many ways.

Or you could campaign for your own family toilets, I think many places would benefit from additional toilets which can fit a buggy in.

As Jorrris responded to the question “What on earth do you think has changed so much in 10 years”
”The level of entitlement”

Yeah, even in the reviews people are disputing the claim that it is suitable for babies from six months - many people are saying it’s definitely unsuitable for under one year olds.

And it still wouldn’t fit in most public toilet cubicles without being collapsed. So it wasn’t so much an obvious solution as just saying random stuff. Not sure why that pp said that was the solution they’d used when they then went on to say they’d used a sling, so a totally different thing.

I'm with you, OP, and I'm kind of sickened that more than half of the poll respondents here think that disabled people should have to fight with various other 'entitled' groups just to be able to use a toilet.

Do people not realise why disabled accessible toilets are absolutely all that people like you and me can use?

@Kanaloa

@It turns out the pp who said the ‘obvious solution’ was to buy a buggy that fit in the cubicle, like she did, actually didn’t do this at all. She used a sling, then linked to a buggy that is both unsuitable for small babies and still wouldn’t fit in an average toilet cubicle without being collapsed.

That isn't what I said. So you have either deliberately lied or massively misunderstood. I said I had him in a sling until he was old enough for a small buggy. I also used a sling when there were 2 of them one in the buggy the other in the sling.

@sofiegiraffe I hope that clears it up.

Nobody is keeping your kids at home. If there’s only one disabled toilet there’s no guarantee you wouldn’t have to wait anyway. I’m sorry it’s so difficult, and sorry you had the experience of using the toilet while exposed, but I wouldn’t do so. It isn’t fair or appropriate that you had to do that while apparently leaving four very young children in the toilet area.

Do people not realise why disabled accessible toilets are absolutely all that people like you and me can use?

Of course they realise but they just don't care. Obvious from this thread.

That buggy in the link is really only suitable as something to sling into the back of the car for an older child. A mum (like me) who has to walk/ use public transport would not be able to rely on something that flimsy, not forgetting that it is totally unsuitable for young babies. A decent sling that you could wear all day costs a lot of money, a cheap crotch dangler wouldn't cut it. Also, even that buggy wouldn't fit into most cubicles, especially if you had an older child with you.

@Kanaloa

Nobody is keeping your kids at home. If there’s only one disabled toilet there’s no guarantee you wouldn’t have to wait anyway. I’m sorry it’s so difficult, and sorry you had the experience of using the toilet while exposed, but I wouldn’t do so. It isn’t fair or appropriate that you had to do that while apparently leaving four very young children in the toilet area.

Agree

@DancesWithTortoises

You replied to a pp asking how they are supposed to use the toilet with a 6 month old saying they could buy a buggy that fit, like you did.

When I questioned what buggy this was that fit in public toilets, you said in fact you used a sling, then linked to a buggy that wouldn’t fit in a cubicle and isn’t appropriate for a small baby. So I have neither lied or misinterpreted.

“I'm asking for how would a person with a pram using an accessible toilet.
You say carry a 6 month old out of their pram, which is dangerous and unhygienic and not feasible at all. You've said yourself it's very hard, so that shouldn't be an option. Another option would be the parent pissing themselves. There's plenty of things that are very hard to do but we don't do them for safety or wellbeing reasons.

Or do what I did. Buy a buggy that will fit in an ordinary cubicle.”

Here’s what you posted, just to remind you. The bottom part of your answer, which isn’t ‘I used a sling.’

So to the mothers who still use intend to use disabled toilets. No one can stop you doing it, but I want you to remember that by making your lives easier, you are stopping another mother like me, from going out at all!

This is a bit of a reach