To ask why you haven't/won't have the covid vaccine?

[shuz1980]

Is it because your an anti vaxxer? Concerned about long term side effects?

I don't feel there has been enough research into the vaccine to know it is safe, or that there won't be side effects in years to come. People act like this is a ridiculous belief, but why don't they know how long it lasts for and when boosters will be needed, if they've done enough research? I will have the vaccine if still needed once I am confident they have enough info.

I also feel that vaccinated have a potential to become the superspreaders if they can pass it on still but not have symptoms. If they are less likely to have symptoms, and can get into places without a test, then they have a good chance of having it and passing it on. Atleast unvaccinated will likely have a recent clear test, and are more conscious of their symptoms.

Thirdly, I think the reason a lot of people are so awful towards the unvaccinated is because they are worried about their choice to have the vaccine and would rather we all sunk together if it turns out there are long term effects to the vaccine.

It may sound far fetched, but that's my current take on it. I am not an antivaxxer, I have confidence in all other vaccines given, but I will not be pushed into something I am not sure about. I am taking more precautions than most, for example, I am not going out to pubs/restaurants/shops and for the rare time I do need to pop into the supermarket, I wear a mask and still social distance.

@XenoBitch

Are the unvaccinated still following other guidelines to reduce the risks - WFH, shopping online, avoiding crowded places etc?

No guideline anywhere says the unvaccinated have to take extra measures over people who are vaccinated, so no, I am not (although WFH is irrelevant to me and I avoid crowds due to anxiety not Covid).

Same. Hate crowds and I can't WFH, I've gone out to work throughout.

[quote Incywincyspiderspleasegoaway]@Dayofpeace I agree with you there should be no censorship and plenty of discussion, although it is critical that it is factually accurate. The names you mention though (including the naturopath and computer scientist who wrote the article you linked to) have all been received critically though in respect of misinformation. I'm not sure how strong that case is for Dr Robert Malone, although I don't think he invented the mRNA vaccine as such. He and his wife have had the Moderna vaccination but he raises questions about benefit v risk in children and very young adults.[/quote]
@Incywincyspiderspleasegoaway

I agree it is critical that information is factual & accurate. Certainty in this regard can only be reached through research, analysis, and time.

If potential risks are “received critically” instead of properly investigated, I think that is a bias and censorship issue.

Robert Malone is indeed vaccinated. The risk / reward for him seemed appropriate. This will be true for many. For others it is likely not to be. However, these sensible, cautious views are being suppressed.

I understand that since Robert Malone made his views clear, there were subsequent attempts to discredit him and try to minimise his role in mRNA invention.

Re: the author of the linked article being “a naturopath & computer scientist”, this is your spin. Their experience and quals are much broader than your description would suggest, plus they reference a wide body of works by qualified others.
I did already say when I provided the link that it was generalist overview. There are many more specific pieces of work but to start to reference them all is too much here.

I know 4 people who have had the vaccine and still got covid and i thought the whole point of the vaccine was that you couldn't get it after the vaccine so im struggling to see the point

The whole point of getting the vaccine is to reduce the risk, not eliminate it entirely. Information about the vaccine not being 100% effective has always been available. The majority of patients in ICU are unvaccinated.

the NHS does not do "annual bloods" though does it?

They do regular “MOT’s” though @Xenia. I think it is every 5 years, although I am happy to be corrected. They check bloods, blood pressure BMI, ask how much alcohol you drink and how much exercise you do, etc and then tell you what your stroke/heart attack/diabetes risk is. We get contacted by our GP about every 5 years. This happens once you reach 50 (I think)

WFU = work from home @SaharaFlower. Apologies for using an acronym.

No guideline anywhere says the unvaccinated have to take extra measures over people who are vaccinated

I know that, but these are general guidelines for everyone. A PP said that they know some vaccinated people who seem to think they are bullet proof, so I wondered if unvaccinated people were throwing caution to the wind or still being careful.

Where are these mysterious GPs?

Mine’s in South Yorkshire @Tinpotspectator. It is a large rural practice. They have probably suspended these health checks during the pandemic though.

@iloveicelollies
The vaccine issue is so divisive. Hate it.
I agree, I do too. Whenever I see discussion shut down or people choosing not to get one vaccine being labelled antivaxxers, it just makes me more anxious about ever getting it.

@Dayofpeace it's not spin but their titles on the article, albeit I'm sure they do have wider qualifications. The body of works that they cite aren't specifically about what they are hypothesising, of course, so the qualifier others doesn't add a huge amount of credence in that respect albeit they are basing various things on some facts.

@SupermanWithTheGreyHair

I don’t agree with it being tested on animals so haven’t had it. When they create a vaccine that’s cruelty free, I’ll be first in the queue.

I think you will find that most if not all vaccines and medication will have been developed using animal products/testing at some point in their development.

What will you do if you become insulin dependent diabetic? When insulin was first developed they used insulin from pigs and dogs. The vaccines made by Pfizer/BioNTech, Oxford/AstraZeneca and Moderna do not contain any animal-derived ingredients, nor does modern insulin, but animal-derived materials may have been used in the production processes for the covid vaccine, and definitely for insulin.

[quote Incywincyspiderspleasegoaway]@Dayofpeace it's not spin but their titles on the article, albeit I'm sure they do have wider qualifications. The body of works that they cite aren't specifically about what they are hypothesising, of course, so the qualifier others doesn't add a huge amount of credence in that respect albeit they are basing various things on some facts.[/quote]
@Incywincyspiderspleasegoaway

I think it is your spin. You thought it would undermine credibility of the article to just use those two descriptors with no acknowledgement of their qualifications and experience or the work they draw on. Otherwise why mention it?

The fact is that the authors point to risks with the mRNA vaccines that have not yet been confirmed one way or another.
They call for more research into those risks.
Who can possibly suggest that is the wrong thing to do?

I am double vaccinated as are most people I know

The 2 reasons 2 friends have given for not having it were:

1 - It's too new - they had not realised it was based on a SARS vaccine that is years old and are now considering it

2 - they had Covid very early on and believe that they now have antibodies that offer the same protection as the vaccine. They don't - the antibodies will be greatly reduced after 18 months and won't protect against new variants. It's their decision but seems flawed and I & the rest of our friendship group won't be spending time with them now we know this - freedom of choice works both ways

@mummyford

I’m aware of the Reuters article. It means nothing that potential risks are dismissed by vested interests even in the absence of long term safety data.

In fact, it rather reinforces the point that we should investigate any and all potential issues, not suppress them out of hand.

We should be led by the data, not by pre-formed opinion in the absence of specific research.

@mummyford

I think all discoveries have been based on speculative hypotheses. That is the nature of scientific enquiry. But there are reasons to investigate further. It is not wild speculation.

I don’t see the need to argue against a call for more research before rolling out a new biotechnology to populations of young people and children.

I believe in the principle of informed consent. Consent cannot be informed if the questions are stifled and the data is not present.

@Dayofpeace The paper you've cited does contain a great deal of interesting hypothesis, but light on specific evidence that any of the issues suggested may, or have been, of issue.

There is a great deal of real data out there which does counter suggested issues, already taking into account the following:

Development of vaccines and supporting models

Study of the natural disease and any evidence of ADE within patients and/or patients who have been treated with antibodies naturally produced in covid-survivors

Titre of vaccine material
Site of administration
Half-life of material and systemic distribution (regarding spike protein)

Physiological and immunological contraindications

No-one is suggesting that study and caution should not be exercised, but the area is extremely well placed for scrutiny.

Any caution should be balanced, as should any argument for or against.

We are all likely to be exposed to Sars-2 as time goes on. If it doesn’t kill us, we will have elicited an immune response to viral proteins expressed through infection. I would prefer my body to have a head start.

The necessity and/or ethics of immunising the young is another issue.

It is arrogance to perpetuate the contents of that paper as anything other than hypothesis, and some conjecture. That’s not science and medicine on the ground, IMO.

I know of a few who won’t get the vaccination.
One because she’s in a low risk area ( very rural) and didn’t see the need. I have a few extended family members who have had it and think anti bodies suffice.
I also have some family that just refuse because anything “the herd” is doing is probably the wrong thing.

I think it’s personal choice and the whole for the greater good thing gets on my nerves. The vaccine clearly doesn’t stop people catching it, there’s new variations all the time and people up to 40 barely know they have it anyway.
I’ve been jabbed for my sins but not bothered about those that haven’t.

@Dayofpeace I do actually agree with you about the essential nature of informed consent.

If people decide to not be immunised, I would hope it was after a balanced review of all the information, which is extremely onerous and probably too much to ask, but I wouldn’t base it on that one paper and the fear it engenders.

IMO you are not being unreasonable. It is not a personal choice as it effects everyone you come into contact with. To not get the vaccine puts other people at risk - the vaccinated and unvaccinated. You are also putting a great strain on the health service. I have sympathy for people with needle phobias but most people who are not vaccinated are not needle phobic.

And yes, it is encumbent on the adults of a population to protect children. A life is a life of course, but not every death is a tragedy. The death of a child from a vaccine for an illness that posed them negligible risk but was administered “for the greater good” is a tragedy. The death of an 85 year old from cancer in a hospice while they happened to have Covid is not.

yeah course we should protect children.

85 yr old with cancer / a child. Err duh. Kind of a Disneyesque simplification of our population. Lots of drama though.

The reality of who needs protecting and how and by whom is so much more nuanced and complex than your sound bite. @Dayofpeace

This will be controversial but I wish the NHS would refuse to treat people who get Covid who are unvaccinated. I wish you have to show vaccinated status to go to work, go to the theatre, go to a restaurant.

Yes, your body your choice but why should your ignorance and stupidity put others at risk or use valuable NHS resources? ….

Just my opinion. I wouldn’t let kids who have not had basic vaccines go to school either …

@Mummyford

thank you that’s good to know, and it’s where my head has been taking me ( that fighting covid may trigger worse than vaccine would)
what concerns me about endo’s and doctors is the openly admit they do not know what causes autoimmune , and in the case of thyroid autoimmune they don’t treat it any differently than a sluggish thyroid, so i’m not sure anyone can truly say it’s safe. rock and hard place!
thank you for your message :)

logincard

I dearly hope I don’t know you in real life. People like you make people like me feel like committing suicide. I have had no vaccines apart from one that almost killed me. I had covid in wave 1, was hideously unwell but didn’t use any NHS resources. I recovered and am fine and probably immune for the foreseeable future, but you’ve have me banned from public spaces, jobs etc and if I were ever to get ill you’d rather I just die than get NHS help? What a sorry excuse for a human you are!

@logincard

This will be controversial but I wish the NHS would refuse to treat people who get Covid who are unvaccinated. I wish you have to show vaccinated status to go to work, go to the theatre, go to a restaurant.

Yes, your body your choice but why should your ignorance and stupidity put others at risk or use valuable NHS resources? ….

Just my opinion. I wouldn’t let kids who have not had basic vaccines go to school either …

You could apply that logic to so many things people end up needing hospital treatment for. Where does it end? I hope you keep yourself in tip top condition so you don't burden the NHS with something you could have prevented.

Some people can't be vaccinated, or are very anxious about it for a multitude of reasons. It is not "ignorance or stupidity" that means some people are struggling with the decision to have it.

@OrganicAvocado opinions like logincard are just as bonkers and harmful as ardent anti-vax views. Neither side know or care what damage they cause

"This will be controversial but I wish the NHS would refuse to treat people who get Covid who are unvaccinated."
We could change that round to the real NHS burdens though surely just as well - the obese etc.

"This will be controversial but I wish the NHS would refuse to treat people who are over weight".
Those people cause more risk and damage to the NHS than the very few of us unvaccinated ones.

I would be happy to opt out of all NHS care if I could get back the hundreds of thousands of income tax I have paid for an NHS I don't use (20% of our income tax - the few of us who actually pay income tax in the UK, goes to the NHS).

would be happy to opt out of all NHS care if I could get back the hundreds of thousands of income tax I have paid for an NHS I don't use (20% of our income tax - the few of us who actually pay income tax in the UK, goes to the NHS).

Lucky you, not needing to use the NHS. Excellent health I presume. Maybe all of a sudden you'll need it one day.

The "few of us" who pay income tax. Give us a break.

@logincard: France seems like a good country for you.

This 100x over. Ive had vaccines throughout my life but dont think ill be having the vaccine until we know more. Im not anti vac, each to their own. Im pregnant atm also and for a turn around in opinions from do not get it to yes get it doesnt sit right