To leave dd to cry?

[Lavendarsaturation]

I’m really struggling with dd, 5, at bedtime.
She doesnt ever want to sleep until really late, her pattern naturally would be 10.30pm - 8.30am and in the holidays she sometimes slips to 11pm to 9am.
I’ve started waking her up at 7am in the hope she will go off earlier. She is really busy in the day but she just never stops.
It’s taking me two to three hours every evening to get her to bed. I’m a single mum and it’s driving me crazy. I don’t have any break ever.
She was up at 7am today and has been out all day. I took her up at 7.30 and she is still wide awake but screams if I leave the room saying she is scared. I am having to take calming breaths because I’m really close to losing it. I have another older dc who spends the evening sat on their own.
It’s making me feel a huge amount of resentment towards dd. I have tried:
Talking to her about it
Special worry eater toy
Special soft light
White noise
Stories
Gentle music
Total silence
Darkness
Lavender spray
Warm bath

NOTHING makes any difference at all. I feel like 2-3 hours a night is crazy and frankly it is ruining my life. I know that sounds over the top but I’m tired! I get to 8pm and I think most children her age would just go to sleep, especially as she is really busy most days. I resent my whole evening being eaten up by sitting next to her waiting for her to go to sleep.
AIBU to now just leave her to cry?

Single mum here - totally get it.
Bribery in your position. Sticker chart. “Stay in bed when I put you there with no wailing and you get a sticker. You can read or play with a small toy in bed, but you stay there and you do not shout me. Shout me and no sticker. Get out of bed and no sticker. When you have 5 stickers you get a small present when you have 10 stickers you get a big present. If you do the whole month we’ll go to the seaside for the day”

Sometimes the ends justify the means.

I mean end justifies the means. You know what I mean. Anyway- bloody bribe the child!

Sounds like you're all having a really rough time. I would try and find a compromise which means your daughter gets the connection and comfort she needs to sleep and you don't have to spend hours up there (I've been there and done it). Things that have helped me are letting go of the idea of a normal 7pm bedtime, go up later. She's probably feeling really unsettled with the big changes so some guided meditation might be really helpful, my little one particularly likes the Dinosnores ones on Spotify. Be kind to yourself and remember this will not last forever

I feel your pain, my DS was like this too and it was horrendous.
I tried to do the put back to bed thing without speaking and it was 100 plus times per night. I did it for a week and then gave up.
The only thing that worked is when he was finally prescribed melatonin at age 8. It's amazing, it changed our evenings immeasurably.
I have heard that it's only prescribed in some circumstances though. DS is eligible as he has an Autism diagnosis. Might be worth talking to you GP about though.

You have my sympathy OP my ds was such a good sleeper as a baby. I think everyone at baby group hated me a bit tbh. However he is a right pain at bedtimes now. As a single parent it is so hard and you totally do need a bit of headspace when everyone is in bed it's a lifesaver. It's blooming tough when that time comes so late in the evening that you can't enjoy it or even function properly.

I'm anticipating WW3 within the next hour...

I have no advice but sending you a single parent hug - it will get easier in time xx also there are some useful threads under lone parents if you ever get time to read them x

Last night - 1am she went off. I didn’t try putting her down until 10.30pm. It still look two and a half hours to get her to sleep.
She’s still awake now even though I got her up at 7.30am and she has been shattered all day.
Now she’s absolutely wide awake. This is by far the most awake she’s been all day. Most of the day she’s been quiet and pale. I tried putting her down tonight at 9.30pm given last night’s lack of sleep. I thought for sure she’d go to sleep but no. Not so far.

I’ve ordered a weighted blanket and I’m going to instigate bribery tomorrow.
I’m also going to get her up when I get up at 6.30am. Surely if I do that every day at some point she will sleep earlier than midnight? I’ve got a couple of big days out planned with her this week too and she’s got the childminder for two days so she should have an active week.
It’s just getting ridiculous.

My brother was like this. my parents gave up and just let him stay up till he fell asleep on the sofa and carried him to bed. I wouldn't be leaving a 5 year old to cry but I wouldn't do a 2 hour bedtime routine every night either. You might just have to accept you dont get evenings to yourself. It's shit but I think leaving her to cry if she says she's scared is too cruel.

1am though! I want to be asleep by 11ish myself!

This sounds horrible for you. What’s her aim? Is she tired, but she wants to be with you rather than sleep? Is she genuinely not tired and gets a bit bored?

I’d try doing all the bedtime stuff at 7, then let her stay up until 9 (no screen time though) and then put her to bed with books, dolls, bedside light etc. She doesn’t have to go to sleep but she has to stay in bed and be quiet.
You could do the housework or potter around etc. being boring but so she keeps seeing you.

I haven't read all suggestions, but have read all of your posts. If she's saying she is scared, then don't leave her crying.

Does she ever spend any time in her room during the day? Perhaps you could start by getting her used to spending some time up there alone during the day doing something she loves. Sell it to her as a "treat" then she can just get used to spending time up there alone. Would she listen to an audio book or have some special pens to draw with that can only be used in her room, something that is a novelty. Once she's happy with that, hopefully at bed time you can convince her up to her room to play or whatever she chooses. So you're not sending her to bed, but "oh wouldn't it be lovely if you had some extra time in your room doing the special thing" This removes the battle and at least then she is out of the way so you can have some space to yourself. She might just not need so much sleep, and if 10pm is her natural sleep time then spending hours trying to settle her early is only going to wind you both up.

1am is very late. Is that a regular occurrence? I would get her checked out at the doc if it's always that late. (Sorry if you've said you've done that already, I skim read through).
I just think battling is harder than accepting sometimes. Put something on the tele for her or let her watch with you as long as it's not inappropriate, and let her stay up while you get on with other things. I really feel for you, if sounds very very tough.

What’s her sleep hygiene like? Screen time, room temperature, blackout curtains, morning exercise etc.

I’m stopping screen time two hours before I plan to send her to bed. Then she has her bath, some milk, I read stories and sing a couple of lullabies and we have a bit of a chat.
She hasn’t cried at all tonight, nor last night, because I didn’t leave the room. She just says she isn’t tired.

@1940s

Would the pretend retreat work. So settle her as normal but 'I've got to just empty the washing machine I will be back in two minutes' and leave her for 5 minutes but come back. And keep finding little reasons to go until you're leaving her longer and longer and she falls asleep on her own?

I did this, they cried but sometimes I’d be back briefly, then have something else I just had to pop to do. I always said I would do one last check if they fell asleep. Eventually it evolved into “night night” “will you check I’m sleeping?” “absolutely”

She’s still awake though.
She’s lying quietly but she’s still awake. Every so often she tries to chat and I say shhhh!

It sounds like you are both so overtired and worked up about the sleep issue that neither of you can relax.

Maybe just take a big step back for the next few days. Don't mention bedtimes at all, don't take her upstairs. Turn the lights down and screens off by 8pm and sit downstairs with a book or a puzzle and let the kids stay with you until they fall asleep or go to bed - if you want to go to bed at 11pm, and your DD is still awake, give her the choice of coming with you or going to her bed.

Once you'd taken the pressure off for a bit and hopefully everyone is getting some more sleep, then the 8pm quiet time can happen in her room rather than downstairs - she doesn't have to go to bed/sleep, but she needs to stay in her room.

She just says she isn’t tired.

Then no wonder she can’t sleep. But it’s nighttime and little children need to be in bed.

I think @glampingcamper put it better than me. Just letting her go with the flow for a bit may help. when you know you're meant to go to sleep it can often be harder to fall asleep.
I do wonder if there is a medical issue here, hormone related or something. My brother was a nightmare and my parents gave up for the very same reason as you're saying. They used to drive till he fell asleep but it wasn't practical in the end, so he just chilled downstairs whilst they got on with their evening until he conked. When he was 7 he was happy to go to bed on his own and read/play till he fell asleep as long as he had his light on.

@Lavendarsaturation I had similar with my DD till she was about 9 (started when her Dad and I divorced). Had some success with the bedtime routine then sitting with her in complete silence till she went to sleep but it took months and I often fell asleep in there with her as like your DD it took hours and hour for her to drop off. She would then wake after ~4-5 hours and the whole cycle would start again. I was like the walking dead and with a full time job I was at my wits end.

Have you tried putting on a story tape for her to listen to while lying in bed? This helped more than anything - don't get me wrong it wasn't a golden bullet but she would actually stay in bed some nights. Do you think she might stay in bed if you got a story book type thing? I don't mind admitting that when I was desperate I would put a DVD on.

I'm trying to think of some way to get you a bit of space to go to bed yourself. Sending you big hugs, I remember how awful those years were. I never thought I'd get through it but she's a teen now and while still not a good sleeping it's hugely improved.

I remember the terror of being left to cry not long after my father had to go. I didn't consciously know what I was scared of back then, but I had this absolute terror that something awful was going to happen to me or to my mum if I was left alone in my bedroom. I wasn't able to put my feelings into words and was asked so many times why I was scared and it was so obvious I was annoying my mum. That just made it worse and I would try my absolute best to keep her engaged in my room, so scared she might leave me. I'm so pleased to see you've reached out for help to not put her through this!

@Lavendarsaturation

I’ve ordered a weighted blanket and I’m going to instigate bribery tomorrow. I’m also going to get her up when I get up at 6.30am. Surely if I do that every day at some point she will sleep earlier than midnight? I’ve got a couple of big days out planned with her this week too and she’s got the childminder for two days so she should have an active week. It’s just getting ridiculous.

I got up at 6:30am for about 15 years, between school and work. I have never been able to get to sleep before midnight - more like 1-2am at the earliest. It’s just how I’m wired.

So no, getting her up early is not guaranteed to make her sleep earlier.

Would sleeping with you be an option?

I would put her to bed a bit later. Tell her you will lie and chat/cuddle for half an hour - put a timer on. After that she could listen to an audio book or something until she is ready to go to sleep.
I would also try rewards. Sticker chart would work for my 4YO but might be too small for a 5YO but some sort of prize for staying in bed.

@Lavendarsaturation

1am though! I want to be asleep by 11ish myself!

This is why your approach makes no sense to me, if she had a bed in your room, you could go to sleep while she reads - surely better than the madness of staying awake.

I asked back at the start what are you doing this all for and I still don't understand.

I have a six year old who wanta cuddling to sleep. I often fall asleep with her and then sneak out. I do resent how much of my evening it eats up. The only thing that's worked is leaving all doors open so she can hear the tv, a nightlight and the ten minutes check up. She also has warm milk before bed and 2 stories. I know she wont still be doing it when she's older so can tolerate it!