To leave dd to cry?

[Lavendarsaturation]

I’m really struggling with dd, 5, at bedtime.
She doesnt ever want to sleep until really late, her pattern naturally would be 10.30pm - 8.30am and in the holidays she sometimes slips to 11pm to 9am.
I’ve started waking her up at 7am in the hope she will go off earlier. She is really busy in the day but she just never stops.
It’s taking me two to three hours every evening to get her to bed. I’m a single mum and it’s driving me crazy. I don’t have any break ever.
She was up at 7am today and has been out all day. I took her up at 7.30 and she is still wide awake but screams if I leave the room saying she is scared. I am having to take calming breaths because I’m really close to losing it. I have another older dc who spends the evening sat on their own.
It’s making me feel a huge amount of resentment towards dd. I have tried:
Talking to her about it
Special worry eater toy
Special soft light
White noise
Stories
Gentle music
Total silence
Darkness
Lavender spray
Warm bath

NOTHING makes any difference at all. I feel like 2-3 hours a night is crazy and frankly it is ruining my life. I know that sounds over the top but I’m tired! I get to 8pm and I think most children her age would just go to sleep, especially as she is really busy most days. I resent my whole evening being eaten up by sitting next to her waiting for her to go to sleep.
AIBU to now just leave her to cry?

I don’t expect her to go to sleep at 7pm - but stories, lullaby, chatting etc takes an hour or so. If I don’t start it until 8pm it’s then gone 9 etc.

I think that only 9 hours of sleep doesn’t seem much for a 5 year old. The sleep predates the split.
She doesn’t stop. When at school she’s up about 6.30am and still doesn’t want to go to bed although is usually asleep by 9pm.
Last week we went on a day trip and had to be out the house by 6.30am, she was on the go all day, didn’t sleep in the car, wasn’t home until 8pm and still didn’t sleep until gone 10.30pm.

My other dc is older and will take himself off to his room even if he doesn’t sleep.
Dd isn’t hugely demanding it’s just the space. I just need some space and I’m not getting any.

Thank you for the suggestions - I’ll look at the Moshi app.
Basically I don’t mind if she isn’t asleep but she needs to not need me to lie by her for hours at a time. She has always tended towards this. So did ds tbh and I had years of it then too.
I just look at other people who have children who go to bed and think - how lovely.

I think that only 9 hours of sleep doesn’t seem much for a 5 year old. The sleep predates the split. Some children sleep more, and some less.

I have a child who wakes at 5:30am, always has - nine hours. Like clockwork.

You can not fight a child's nature, you will never win!

Couldn't you have family time at night, and then set your own clock for e.g. 6am and have peace and quiet in the morning?

Mine has always gone to bed at 7pm but it is up to him when he falls asleep. I would not be sat there with waiting for him as he would just want to chat or play.
I would let her cry it out, you need and deserve an evening too.

My 4 year old DD was starting to get to that point! I knew me being in her room was more of a hindrance and it was gradually taking longer and longer for her to fall asleep!
I feel for you! We actually by chance managed to get her to go to bed on her own because we got covid so we literally couldn't stay with her (she ended up getting it anyway)
But we have now had 2 weeks of her going to bed on her own its a little silver lining 😁 and she falls asleep within 5 min

But in your case it seems very extreme I would maybe take a step back and just take the struggle out tell her to go to bed when she is tired see how it pans out or even let her watch some TV in her room until she falls asleep

I start work at 7.30am in the holidays so that I can finish earlier and spend time with the dc - there’s just no respite at the moment!

I would try to take the stress out of it for a week or so. Would she twig if you changed the clocks? So that she was going to bed at 9.30 but thought it was 7.30? I would sit with her with no talking, anything she says just respond with “shhh, time to go to sleep now”. After a few nights I’d leave the room when she was virtually asleep, then use the gradual retreat method of sitting near we the door very couple of nights. I think as you’ve recently split up from your partner I’d try to do things very gently. You don’t want her feeling stressed about bedtime on top of getting used to Dad not being there. I would also consider melatonin, you can buy supplements for kids, as she’s always been a late sleeper it might help.

Sounds tough. You say if you stay with her she chats. Do you reply? My son tries to chat. I just say no talking. You could also tell her you will only stay if she lies down with her eyes closed and no talking.

Have you thought if having one of her friends for a sleepover?
I wonder if that might break the habit, or at least make you both see bedtimes differently.

She can’t tell the time. The light evenings don’t help though.
She does wind herself up massively.
I started bedtime at 7.45 tonight and I still have no end in sight.
I’m meant to be going to a concert next weekend and I won’t be able to go because of her sleep. I know this sounds selfish but I spent so many years being controlled by DH and now I feel like this is no better! I’m held to ransom by a 5 year old instead!

Well there's a start for you, stories lullabies and chatting do not need to take an hour. Spend half an hour doing all that then stop engaging. Tell her before hand you will chat for say 5 minutes then its rest time.

Maybe go up at 8.30, routine for 30 mons as above then if not engaging she migjt just chat herfelt to sleep in the 30 mins you don't engage. Then it's just an hour upstairs which is a good start. My 3 year old has a long routine, it's just what he needs. We chat then he I say I'm going to sleep and he carries on for a bit not expecting a response as he never gets one!

I would not leave a child who has just lost dad out the house to cry, she will already be going through more than you see from her. It coukd do major damage.

The more you post OP, its becoming clear that you need to get a bit tough on her. Sometimes we have to be cruel to be kind as parents. It's not by accident that both of your kids have expected you to be there until they fall asleep.

Get yourself a strategy and stick to it, solidly, for 2 weeks.

Yes. It’s not her fault.
He just gets to waltz off as usual though. I think if I were having a break anywhere it would not be so bad. I am naturally a very patient person but this is testing me because I am so tired myself.

Black out blinds!!

He had minimal involvement when he was here tbh. It’s always been me doing bedtime. There have been loads of nights where he’s not been here.
I think this is possibly because of the fact she’s not at school and so not as worn out. And I’ve felt guilty and indulged.

OP this is so tough for you, i really sympathise.

I was exactly the same. Always found sleep hard but parents separated when I was 5 and I just couldn't sleep at all. My mum was at her wits' end working full time and had 3 other kids too. She left me and it had really significant long term effects on my sleep. However as an adult I have come to realise I probably have ADHD. It might be worth seeing if she does?

We have the same issue! DD is 9. I still have to sit with her until she's asleep and it can take several hours. We've tried everything you listed and more. It really is absolutely ridiculous. I have lost my shit in the past and walked out (OH was at home, I didn't leave the DC's alone!) We did try just leaving her to it- she screamed so much that the neighbour over the road text me to ask if everything was ok- now, whenever she starts to kick off I panic that someone is going to call the police or social services. We tried telling her she could read/ draw, as long as she stayed in her room- she read until nearly 1am then needed me to go and sit with her while she went to sleep. A weighted blanket sometimes helps but not always. I even spoke to the GP who was not sympathetic at all, just said to make sure she gets up at roughly the same time each day which she generally does anyway.

Sorry I can't offer any advice, but you are not alone!

I have wondered re adhd but she has no other signs. She’s not impulsive or distracted etc.
She is always full pelt though. I thought school might help but it hasn’t. She will do 15 hour days where she barely stops to sit down and it’s always the next thing and the next thing.
She will be out the house early and to the childminder, busy all day there, i will fetch her at three and she basically wants to go to the playground or out for dinner or paint or run around outside and she will go for another 6/7 hours.

It’s when it’s 5pm and I think I’ve got another 5 and a half hours. When I’ve been up since 6am

@Lavendarsaturation

I start work at 7.30am in the holidays so that I can finish earlier and spend time with the dc - there’s just no respite at the moment!

You could start later perhaps, shift the whole day later?

It just seems like you are battling endlessly but nowhere have you said why it is a battle worth fighting.

It really tests me, I love her so much but right now I could cheerfully walk out.
I’ve gone back in with her. I’ve been back in here for over an hour and she is still fucking wide awake.

My ds has been the same and he's 6 next month. We've finally cracked it.
Using sleep meditations on YouTube. I just turn it on, sit and do it with him and he's asleep within about 20 mins which is amazing compared to a month ago.

Worth a try? Depends on the child as well because people rave about moshi but he hated it.

We use this:

@Whenwhy

If you are about to lose your shit then it's worth sleep training her. Definitely. At her age you can sit her down and simply tell her the new rules in order to prepare her for them. Then bloody stick to it!!!

I would also try waking her at 6am rather than 7am. You need her to be at a point where even if she isn't ready to sleep, she can stay in her room alone to give you an evening.

Would a reward system work? The problem is that age 5, short of locking her in her room (not ok) you can't force her to stay in bed.

What long term emotional effect do you think her dad leaving and her mum making her stay alone in her room all evening is going to have?

What is she doing?
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