To leave dd to cry?

[Lavendarsaturation]

I’m really struggling with dd, 5, at bedtime.
She doesnt ever want to sleep until really late, her pattern naturally would be 10.30pm - 8.30am and in the holidays she sometimes slips to 11pm to 9am.
I’ve started waking her up at 7am in the hope she will go off earlier. She is really busy in the day but she just never stops.
It’s taking me two to three hours every evening to get her to bed. I’m a single mum and it’s driving me crazy. I don’t have any break ever.
She was up at 7am today and has been out all day. I took her up at 7.30 and she is still wide awake but screams if I leave the room saying she is scared. I am having to take calming breaths because I’m really close to losing it. I have another older dc who spends the evening sat on their own.
It’s making me feel a huge amount of resentment towards dd. I have tried:
Talking to her about it
Special worry eater toy
Special soft light
White noise
Stories
Gentle music
Total silence
Darkness
Lavender spray
Warm bath

NOTHING makes any difference at all. I feel like 2-3 hours a night is crazy and frankly it is ruining my life. I know that sounds over the top but I’m tired! I get to 8pm and I think most children her age would just go to sleep, especially as she is really busy most days. I resent my whole evening being eaten up by sitting next to her waiting for her to go to sleep.
AIBU to now just leave her to cry?

@30degreesandmeltinghere

Your 5 yo doesn't get to dictate staying up til 10.30 pm!!

My daughter has NEVER been able to sleep early. Not a surprise given both of her parents are owls. As a baby she slept midnight till noon. She started full time school at almost 4 and was awake until 10:30pm the first week (it adjusted down to about 9:30pm over a couple of weeks without any stress). She could no sooner go to bed at 7pm than I could.

I don’t see the point in trying to force sleep - it won’t work. I have found I sleep better and a little earlier if I cut out all refined sugar and processed food. Might be worth a try. Otherwise, pick your battles OP.

(Daughter has taken herself off to bed when she’s tired without any fuss at all since she was about 7. That’s generally not till 9:30 during school and 10:30-11pm during holidays. It’s just how it is.)

Don't forget your other dc need you. And you all need sleep...especially if you start the day before 6am.
Tough love op...

How about, during the day you have a chat about how bedtime isn't meant to be like this. Talk to her about why she gets upset, reassure her and explain that everyone needs this to work differently. She needs to get off to sleep with less fuss.
Lay out the plan, maybe say she can stay up a bit later if she settles down and doesn't get worked up. You'll chat for 15 minutes and then it's bedtime. Lights out no more chatting. Then if she gets up, you quietly take her back to bed but don't chat.
It is hard and it sounds as if she is unsettled by recent events.

We had this issue for years. My daughter is 8 and has recently been diagnosed with ADHD. Her pediatrician prescribed her melatonin because no matter what time she woke up she would be up until at least 10 not able to switch off. It's been a miracle worker. Although her little sister is now carrying the torch for bedtime capers

It will be more beneficial to your daughter, long run, to have a lovely cuddle with you, and a relaxing end to her days, rather than screaming herself into a frenzy for hours.

I would find a way to just make the evenings nicer. If she doesn;t need to sleep, of course she doesn;t want to go to bed and be alone for hours.

What terrible things would happen if the deal with her was - you can stay downstairs until 9pm if you behave very sensibly?

I think you are sending her up very early for someone who naturally doesn't sleep until later. It is like you think all children have to go to bed at the same time - but there is no law re. 7:30.

This sounds really tough, op. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be.
You mentioned you've just split with her dad, it sounds like it's coming from there. did the sleeping issues start after the breakup?
I'm inclined to say it's insecurity from the disruption I'm her home life and if you leave her to cry, it could make things worse.

How would you feel about just letting her stay up with you a bit longer? Let her be in the living room with her sibling while you tidy up and get some things done? I know you said she might get used to it but at the same time, if nothing else is working, but just letting her stay up longer with you might just be what she needs right now and will learn to go off to sleep earlier again when that feeling of security has returned?

Sorry haven't read whole thread but didn't want to not reply.

Have a look into the gradual retreat method. I read that someone had used it with their 13 year old.

I used it with my 6, nearly 7 yo and it worked a treat. And it's easy to dip into whenever there's a regression (sickness etc).

To help her to get off to sleep, once tucked in tell her you won't be chatting, but you will stay and hold her hand / pat her back etc. For my DS that wasn't enough, so I started by sleeping on the floor in his room. Every few nights I moved a little further away. I actually spent a few nights on the landing outside his room! But small, slow changes helped him to adjust and feel reassured.

During the no chat time I usually play a story. The sleepypaws one by Moshi (can be found on Spotify / YouTube / Moshi app) is AMAZING. I usually have to play it twice but it works a treat.

Good luck x

Perhaps instead of putting her to sleep, try putting her to bed but she's allowed a book/ audiobook and then maybe she'd tolerate being alone in her bedroom.

Honestly, I think 7 is really, really early but then I'm not British and honestly we just don't really put kids to bed so early*.

*not saying either way is better BTW.

You have to leave her to cry. She will learn eventually.
I had this with both kids, I felt I had to stay in with them to settle them and would then creep out, they got used to me being there and would scream when they woke up.

I ended up using the technique that supernanny uses and it worked well.

The key things are that you have a set bedtime routine and don't deviate, usually I would include a story and a song but it's up to you as long as it's calming and consistent.
Then after the bedtime story leave, turn the light off and say "time to go to sleep" or something like that.
Then when she gets the first time, pick her up and say "it's bedtime", nothing else. Ignore the crying - it's just temper.

Every time she gets up after that it's blank expression, put her in bed and say nothing. No reaction from you. Don't give up and talk or cuddle her as you'll undo all your hard work. It's a battle of wills and you have to win for her sake.
The first night will be hard so you might want support, the second night will be slightly easier and then by the end of the week you'll have a routine.
I did it with DS at 4 and then DD at 3. It was hard but it worked and they were better off. They are well balanced teens now and don't even remember the process - they think they always went to bed like that!

You're tried too many things but you just need to do one consistently. Bath, story, bed then do not engage. Have music on maybe. If she gets out of bed then take her back every time- no conversation or eye contact, be very boring. Repeat.

You say you have an older DC sitting on their own so presumably wouldn't have child-free time once she's asleep. Could you keep her up later until your other DC goes to bed as seems a much better option if she naturally sleeps later and you are spending every night stressed for hours on end. I doubt you'll be able to relax if you leave her to cry.

You have to leave her to cry.

No one has to leave a kid to cry.

Some people choose to do it, some people choose not to do it. I personally chose never to leave my kids to cry, and it worked out very well for me.

I see other people have suggested it but I was wondering if you have tried either the moshi app or audio books? I used to have to lie with my son to get him to sleep until we introduced audio books, then I'd just pop downstairs to put laundry on/ unload dishwasher and come back up 10-15 minutes later and he'd be much more settled.
It sounds awful OP and there's no wonder you're struggling. Hope you find a solution that works soon.

The other option is to say she has to have quiet time from 8/9pm whatever suits. So doesn't have to sleep but has to read/colour/play quietly in her room.

@lannistunut

You have to leave her to cry.

No one has to leave a kid to cry.

Some people choose to do it, some people choose not to do it. I personally chose never to leave my kids to cry, and it worked out very well for me.

Yes, I agree with this. You do not have to leave a child to cry. There are many avenues that OP can try.

Consistency is key here. It doesn't hugely matter which strategy you choose BUT you have to be consistent with it. Treat the break up as a reset for any strategies you tried before. Decide on your course of action and discuss it in the day with her. Explain why it is important for her to sleep, what she can expect at bedtime, and that you will do XYZ. Repeat the expectations through the day and follow through for at least 2 weeks.

If you are about to lose your shit then it's worth sleep training her. Definitely. At her age you can sit her down and simply tell her the new rules in order to prepare her for them. Then bloody stick to it!!!

I would also try waking her at 6am rather than 7am. You need her to be at a point where even if she isn't ready to sleep, she can stay in her room alone to give you an evening.

Would a reward system work? The problem is that age 5, short of locking her in her room (not ok) you can't force her to stay in bed.

I would probably just put my effort into making the evenings a fun and relaxing family time, maybe watch nice films together, or play games. It could be a time of nice happy bonding rather than a battle.

Sometimes when we get stuck in a battle with our kids we have to think - what precisely am I achieving by doing this? What you are doing, OP, is creating a stressful situation.

In many countries it is routine for children to go to bed at 9pm, 10pm.

My 6 year old is the same. No matter how much I try he won't sleep till really late. Even it he has been at school all day. I have tired moshi and helps. He finds and excuse to get of bed and run downstairs where he sees daddy and daddy let's him stay up even though I have told him no he should be in bed. I agree most kids his age would be asleep by now.

I have also started to listen to music with him and sing and that helps.

What if you just lay with her for 30 min, completely ignoring her and no chats at all. Her body just needs a new routine and being consistent is key. So laying down with her, lights off, no talking?

The quiet time idea is a good one. No pressure on her to be in bed but she has to be in her room and quiet.

Stop putting her to bed the struggle probably hypes her up and makes it so she can't relax.

Let her go up the same time as older DC and if she wants to read books in bed or play with something allow that whilst you have your time downstairs to relax .
My DC go up to bed at the same time and do their own thing until they feel like sleeping some nights are later than others but they stay in their room and I know they're safe. I'm either downstairs or in bed myself they have always done it this way and had no problems. They're 16 and 10.

That sounds so tough.

Personally, I'm not sure that the tough love thing would be my choice in your situation. I think you sound really understandably exhausted and stressed out, and hours of screaming and stress is not going to help that. Also, it's likely she genuinely needs that extra reassurance of you being there not only due to her age, but also due to the recent separation.

My son is also always on the go and doesn't need much sleep...normally only 10 hours. He's just turned 6.

I've had to accept his later bedtime. We go upstairs at 8ish and he is now asleep by around 8.45

We talked a lot about bedtimes during the day and agreed on a routine.

I will stay with him and read my book, and he can have his night light on and music (if he wants) but he CAN'T chat, he has to TRY to go to sleep.

When he starts messing I barely engage, just say 'sleep now'. If he gets really bad I say if he's not ready to sleep, I'm going to go and get on with my jobs and he can play by himself til he's ready.

He always wants me to stay so normally settles back down. It's gone from taking 45mins/hour for him to get to sleep to it literally being 5-10mins sometimes now.

You've got lots of different advice on this thread so I really hope things improve for you soon.

We went through this stage with our eldest when he was 3. It could take HOURS (2-3 every night) and he would get so cross and have never ending energy. It was completely exhausting, and you have all my sympathy.

I came to say that we found something that worked for us! It was a super nanny technique (don't judge me, I was willing to try anything).

You say goodnight once with all the love and care, books, songs kisses etc. And then leave the room.

The first time they come out the room, you say super kindly but also firmly 'night night, mummy expects you to go to sleep now' and tuck back in with a kiss etc.

Every single time after that you say NOTHING. Not a word - no bargaining, pleading, no discussion, no 'one last snack/cuddle/story' and just take the child back to bed. They get frustrated that there's no reaction but it was amazing.

The first night or two I honestly must have taken him in 25 times. The next nights less, and by about night 5 we were down to 2/3 and asleep by 8. It was LIFE-CHANGING.

When we embarked on it we made a commitment we would do it for two weeks. I think we explained it to him before hand... and just stuck to it. It was all sorted within a week.

Anyway you might have already tried this but wanted to share as it really helped us. Good luck!