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Original poster

Is racism against the English acceptable?

792 replies

BabyBearRus · 26/07/2021 23:58

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

OP posts:
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PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 03:22

@NiceGerbil

'However making people who were born decades or hundreds of years later feel guilty about it makes no sense as they didn't get a say where they were born and had no part in the historical events. They should learn about it and feel sad and be even more determined for that to never happen again in their country/ culture, but should not be made to feel responsible for things that they had no part in that happened before they were born. That's madness.'

When has it ever been even hinted at that individuals- man woman child- are personally responsible/ guilty for things that were done by a nation in the past?

I've not seen that tbh.

Did you read the thread? Confused
NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 03:24

Why do you feel as if blame is being directed at you personally for things the country where you live did, years ago?

Literally no one is looking at you and thinking. Her! Personally responsible for X terrible thing.

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 03:24

Why do you feel that way?

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 03:25

I was on it earlier and my comments didn't go down very well.

Why do you personally feel that blame is being placed on you, as an individual. For these things.

PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 03:30

@NiceGerbil

'However making people who were born decades or hundreds of years later feel guilty about it makes no sense as they didn't get a say where they were born and had no part in the historical events. They should learn about it and feel sad and be even more determined for that to never happen again in their country/ culture, but should not be made to feel responsible for things that they had no part in that happened before they were born. That's madness.'

When has it ever been even hinted at that individuals- man woman child- are personally responsible/ guilty for things that were done by a nation in the past?

I've not seen that tbh.

This is the disconnect. You say you're not saying that current individual are responsible. But you seem to blame their "states" or "countries". These are social constructs, not actual "things" that exist. If thex exist in any sense of the word, they do so only as a collective of individuals. The individuals thst make up those countries or states now are made up entirely of different people to the people/ state that committed atrosities in WW11 for example:

People did horrific things, and made all kinds of excuses for it. I have German family, Jewish family, so I know. My point is that people did those things. Under pressure yes, but they chose to. That isn't the fault of people several generations later. It's entirely on the people that did it.

What I want us to do is be able to be honest about what happened and learn from it to prevent it happen

PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 03:33

Ooops posted too soon!

...to prevent is happening again if at all possible.

I have family all over Europe. It's heartbreaking what we've done to each other. I so hope the lessons are learned, finally. That's why Brexit was so depressing - the opposite seems to be happening. I just don't think individual guilt about stuff people have had no part in is the answer.

Nefelibata33 · 30/07/2021 03:35

I think we need to worry about what is happening in this country, right now. The younger generations seem so open minded, and I think the future will be a beautiful thing. If it hasn't been wrecked by then. Our society seems to have become so divided, and it has given rise to so much hatred. I really think that the neo-nazis are trying to take over the country, and it scares me. If Farage can get people to attack the RNLI, then anything is possible. The RNLI! Heroes, who save lives. Come on, what is going on in this country? Hatred, that's what. Racist or otherwise

SourAppleChew · 30/07/2021 03:36

On these types of threads most people who moan about 'the English' are usually assuming a default of white people. Surely that's offensive in itself when there are quite a few cities now where the majority of youth are British non-white.

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 03:39

Polkadot given your background, what are your thoughts on the anti semitism that is rife in some areas and has been for years?

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 03:42

'You say you're not saying that current individual are responsible. But you seem to blame their "states" or "countries". These are social constructs, not actual "things" that exist. If thex exist in any sense of the word, they do so only as a collective of individuals. The individuals thst make up those countries or states now are made up entirely of different people to the people/ state that committed atrosities in WW11 for example'.

And yet in Berlin there are numerous memorials, museums etc recognising the horror the Nazis perpetrated.

You see those as.. oppressive to young people?

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 03:43

@SourAppleChew

On these types of threads most people who moan about 'the English' are usually assuming a default of white people. Surely that's offensive in itself when there are quite a few cities now where the majority of youth are British non-white.
Which ones are those?
Nefelibata33 · 30/07/2021 03:53

I'll be honest, I think Brexit has given validation to the spread of hatred in all its forms in this country, and I find it really worrying. I feel sad, and angry, about what is happening to English society. And it's only getting worse and worse.... It's not just England though, the right wing/neo nazi element seem to be spreading to many countries. We need to make people more aware of this, that it's not just a bit of politics, but a serious threat to society in our country

PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 03:59

@NiceGerbil

Polkadot given your background, what are your thoughts on the anti semitism that is rife in some areas and has been for years?
I think it's disgusting. As is all racism and xenophobia.
PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 04:04

@NiceGerbil

'You say you're not saying that current individual are responsible. But you seem to blame their "states" or "countries". These are social constructs, not actual "things" that exist. If thex exist in any sense of the word, they do so only as a collective of individuals. The individuals thst make up those countries or states now are made up entirely of different people to the people/ state that committed atrosities in WW11 for example'.

And yet in Berlin there are numerous memorials, museums etc recognising the horror the Nazis perpetrated.

You see those as.. oppressive to young people?

No. I think it's important to teach young people to be rational and empathetic rather than be sucked into religious/ political ideologies as these only ever lead to extremism and horrific behaviour. We need to teach young people to think.

What side of an arbitrary line on a map they are born on has no more bearing on being a decent human than their hair colour. I'd hope that at some point we'd we able to move past ridiculous prejudices, recognise the mistakes of the past then move forward to make a better society, rather than wallow in bitterness about the past, that will help nobody. Plenty of people need help right now and I'd rather effort went into that than distributing blame for historical events.

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 04:10

Given you think in terms of individuals and not groups/ society etc.

How can any systematic problems with parts of society be recognised or addressed?

PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 04:16

@NiceGerbil

Given you think in terms of individuals and not groups/ society etc.

How can any systematic problems with parts of society be recognised or addressed?

What a ridiculous over-simplificafion. Groups and society are made up of individuals taking on those responsibilities at a given time. They are a collective endeavour of people for mutual benefit and greater good. But they do mot exist as a separate entity to the individuals actively creating it at that time, they are a manfrstation of what people do to create those social structures, at that particular time. "Society" isn't some separate thing that exists independently of people and is immutable. Society is people, together, doing things to help them live together.
NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 04:16

'What side of an arbitrary line on a map they are born on has no more bearing on being a decent human than their hair colour. '

And yet...

I didn't notice non white people when the NF were active.

Are you implying white people are more likely to be violent racists?

I'd have thought that's the last thing you'd say tbh.

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 04:19

'But they do mot exist as a separate entity to the individuals actively creating it at that time, they are a manfrstation of what people do to create those social structures, at that particular time. "Society" isn't some separate thing that exists independently of people and is immutable. Society is people, together, doing things to help them live together'

So when large numbers of people agree to exterminate X other group. People who they lived next door to etc.

That's not really helping people to live together is it?

PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 04:19

The lack of recognition of this is exactly why issues like climate change that require collective effort at a societal level so not get addressed. The dichotomy of individuals vs collective society is totally false.

PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 04:21

@NiceGerbil

'But they do mot exist as a separate entity to the individuals actively creating it at that time, they are a manfrstation of what people do to create those social structures, at that particular time. "Society" isn't some separate thing that exists independently of people and is immutable. Society is people, together, doing things to help them live together'

So when large numbers of people agree to exterminate X other group. People who they lived next door to etc.

That's not really helping people to live together is it?

What? Of course it isn't. What a bizarre and weird thing to say. You're accusing ne of justifying genocides that killed members if my family? Or what?? Read what I actually wrote.
NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 04:22

Ok I think I get it.

So you mean societies working together for the collective good, as they see it.

So working together to get more land, suppress a religion, get more resources etc.

Is that right?

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 04:25

I thought we had to call out any reference to past atrocities?

Í know that sounds harsh.

But in my lifetime I've seen swastikas on bus stops, Jewish children being abused going to school, bomb threats to those schools, and a massive bomb detonated at a Jewish org.

I don't see how ignoring social/ political drives and thinking on an individual basis can help.

NiceGerbil · 30/07/2021 04:26

Oh and security at synagogues for at least the last 15 years.

Some don't publish their location.

Ignoring the history and focusing on individuals doesn't seem to right approach to me.

PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 04:27

@NiceGerbil

Ok I think I get it.

So you mean societies working together for the collective good, as they see it.

So working together to get more land, suppress a religion, get more resources etc.

Is that right?

No.

You really do not get it and that's not what I mean, at all. I think, aside from the typos, my posts have explained my position very clearly already.

My two year old has had me up most of the night so I must sleep now and will be happy tomorrow to answer any non-goady and fair questions about what I've said (but regarding what I have actually said, not strange insinuations about what I may have meant because what I meant was what I said).

PolkadotSkies · 30/07/2021 04:30

@NiceGerbil

I thought we had to call out any reference to past atrocities?

Í know that sounds harsh.

But in my lifetime I've seen swastikas on bus stops, Jewish children being abused going to school, bomb threats to those schools, and a massive bomb detonated at a Jewish org.

I don't see how ignoring social/ political drives and thinking on an individual basis can help.

This is appalling and I am so sorry.

This is exactly what I want to stop. I think if children are taught the damage religion and politicial ideology has done, the human toll of it all, that would be the best way to stop it as they should never be indoctrinated into these ideologies in the first place.