Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

Wow. I am amazed at the response to my original post. It started out about the prejudice one individual experienced because of her nationality. Opening up questions of how to define racism and prejudice. Thank you everyone for all your comments and debate. What started as the relationship with the English at a regional level has generated debate on the historical/cultural/contemporary relationship with the English and the wider world.

Honestly, I have struggled with this, given my Welsh/Irish background. There has always been an us against the English mentality. But something shifted in me to see such cowardly and prejudiced abuse towards a vulnerable woman by my fellow countrymen.

So, my original argument still stands. And perhaps I'm being a little too Pollyanna here. I don't think anyone deserves to be abused because of their race or nationality. Even if the race or nationality in question has a questionable history. To sanction one type of prejudice but decry another is morally reprehensible. History and society is far too nuanced to offer such sweeping generalisations and stereotypes. Indeed, isn't this a major problem at the heart of racism and prejudice.

Anyway, as fascinating as this debate has been, I'm bowing out. Wishing you all the very best. Please keep any further debate civil 🙏 but productive 😁

Yeah dont think im inclined to take lectures on treatment of the Maori from white new zealanders

And it was the actions of white new zealanders, not 'the crown'. Im now seeing this very covenient conflation from some Canadians regarding past crimes as well.

Wroxie because its both irrelevant and untrue. You think US slavery stopped when they stopped importing them (largely due to the 1814 treaty with......britain)?

50,000 slaves shipped to the us between 1810 and abolition.

Jesus. Does anybody really believe people are responsible for stuff that happened in their countries decades before they were born? That is bonkers.

@PolkadotSkies

Jesus. Does anybody really believe people are responsible for stuff that happened in their countries decades before they were born? That is bonkers.

People are not, but states/nations can be.

This is a not a new concept.

Should a current nation be responsible for events that occurred centuries, when will it end? We die for a reason so a new generation can start from afresh otherwise we’d just be stuck in the past.

I don't think nations start afresh.

Maybe if you culled everyone and then imported some new people to start again.

Unfortunately there are people of all races and nationalities who are hateful to others. On radio 4 this morning they were interviewing black women who had received abuse about their children being 'too white', and this was from other black people. It's sad and awful.

@lannistunut - But strangely no one on here would ever dare suggest that Germany was responsible for the last two world wars. Can you imagine the outrage?

I fully expect to be told that the English were in fact responsible for world war 2 before too long. That’s if no one on here has suggested it already. They probably have.

[quote EYProvider]@lannistunut - But strangely no one on here would ever dare suggest that Germany was responsible for the last two world wars. Can you imagine the outrage?

I fully expect to be told that the English were in fact responsible for world war 2 before too long. That’s if no one on here has suggested it already. They probably have.[/quote]
I think you’re probably right.

Not caught up sorry.

To recent posts-
'But strangely no one on here would ever dare suggest that Germany was responsible for the last two world wars. Can you imagine the outrage?'

The headlines and chants aimed at Germany and referencing the war were... What then?

If you find yourself in Berlin then I recommend visiting a museum 'the topology of terror'.

It's built where the SS/ Gestapo HQ was.

It's incredibly upsetting. Full of photos that were more affecting than those more usually seen.

I've never been to a country that faced up to the atrocities they carried out, so completely.

Certainly England doesn't.

I'm not sure about racism against the English? But there is a massive problem with English people being racist. You saw what happened after England lost in the final of the Euros. Brexit seems to have given validation for half the country to show their true colours IE hatred towards anyone who isn't English, particularly those with a different colour of skin. The rise in hate crime, the rise in hatred towards minority groups in general. It's all linked. This has become a country full of hate

Ah no.

I mentioned the England supporters kicking the shit out of Italy fans.

Only one person responded iirc to say they were 'twats'.

@NiceGerbil

If you find yourself in Berlin then I recommend visiting a museum 'the topology of terror'.

It's built where the SS/ Gestapo HQ was.

It's incredibly upsetting. Full of photos that were more affecting than those more usually seen.

I've never been to a country that faced up to the atrocities they carried out, so completely.

Certainly England doesn't.

I think you're so right about this.

Every lie we tell incurs a debt to the truth.

@stairway

Should a current nation be responsible for events that occurred centuries, when will it end? We die for a reason so a new generation can start from afresh otherwise we’d just be stuck in the past.

Exactly. Each generation is a new opportunity to start again and drop old grievances and treat each other as individual people worthy of respect. We should call out anybody not doing that and focus our energy on the poorest people in the world and getting them a decent standard of living: reliable food and water supplies and decent healthcare. Strange resentment against people who live in an area where other people lived hundreds of years ago who were not nice to your ancestors is madness really. Best to focus on what can be done now to make things better in future.

That's not why we die!

And there have been stacks of genocides since the Holocaust and so... The new generations don't seem to be doing s great job!

'drop old grievances and treat each other as individual people worthy of respect. We should call out anybody not doing that and focus our energy on the poorest people in the world and getting them a decent standard of living:'

Call out anybody who mentions any part atrocity? Is there a date you have in mind? More than 5 years ago call them out?

People are not, but states/nations can be.

And what do you think a state/ nation is? If it isn't the people who compose it? What would it be without them? So they absolutely have the choice to choose how to deal with these issues because collectively they are the nation.

'not nice'

Agree massive atrocities that are still swept under the carpet. Were not nice.

PolkadotSkies

So just to pick an example or 2-

Early 1900s Belgium in the Congo. Recent enough to feel anger, or called out?

Mid 90s Srebrenica recent enough to feel anger? Or called out?

@NiceGerbil

That's not why we die!

And there have been stacks of genocides since the Holocaust and so... The new generations don't seem to be doing s great job!

'drop old grievances and treat each other as individual people worthy of respect. We should call out anybody not doing that and focus our energy on the poorest people in the world and getting them a decent standard of living:'

Call out anybody who mentions any part atrocity? Is there a date you have in mind? More than 5 years ago call them out?

Not we're mot doing a great job of it, for the reasons I mentioned.

And no, that is a gross misrepresentation. Atrocities should be acknowledged, examined, not shied away from in education. We need to understand what has happened to try to prevent it happeninh again.

However making people who were born decades or hundreds of years later feel guilty about it makes no sense as they didn't get a say where they were born and had no part in the historical events. They should learn about it and feel sad and be even more determined for that to never happen again in their country/ culture, but should not be made to feel responsible for things that they had no part in that happened before they were born. That's madness.

You think loading young people with guilt about stuff they had nothing to do with will help them prevent it happening again? I disagree. People with no morals will do what they do regardless, and people who have values will likely be put off any kind of public life. The good ones, who we all want to do it. Teach the past so people can learn but to assign some collective responsibility for events before you were born iust because you happened to be born on a certain side of a line on a map decades or hundreds or thousands of years later is irrational beyond belief.

'However making people who were born decades or hundreds of years later feel guilty about it makes no sense as they didn't get a say where they were born and had no part in the historical events. They should learn about it and feel sad and be even more determined for that to never happen again in their country/ culture, but should not be made to feel responsible for things that they had no part in that happened before they were born. That's madness.'

When has it ever been even hinted at that individuals- man woman child- are personally responsible/ guilty for things that were done by a nation in the past?

I've not seen that tbh.