Is racism against the English acceptable?

[BabyBearRus]

We are currently on holiday in Wales and have just heard an altercation outside our holiday accommodation blasting the "bastard English who come to stay here". I'm shocked. I am half Welsh and half Irish, and spent much time in both countries. But also spent half my life in England. There has always been a jovial criticism of the English, e.g. during rugby internationals etc, but in recent years the tone has become more racist. I also find this resentful attitude towards the English amongst my Irish and Scottish friends. The English seem to be an acceptable people to hate. Surely this should be classed as racism? And, I'm saying this from a predominantly Welsh and Irish heritage. Yes, I am aware of the history of these isles, but when are we going to get over this? Truly baffled.

[Sunshineandseagulls]

@TomPinch

To be fair, you didn't mention all them bombs that some Irish let off in England because some other Irish wanted to remain part of the UK. I'm not sure the English are to blame for that situation.

That the bombings were abhorrent goes without saying and there can be no justification. However, just to point out that the people who most vehemently wanted to remain part of the UK were British for the most part and many would never, ever consider themselves Irish even though they live on the island of Ireland. You might want to look into the plantations of Ireland and who was responsible for them. A long time ago yes, but still relevant.

[CoffeeCantata]

fliptopbin · Today 13:03
Generally I see the English part of my heritage as shameful, and have long accepted that keeping a low profile, keeping to myself and accepting that I likely to be disliked for good reason is the best course of action.

Which countries would you not be ashamed to be from though?

I don't agree that all English history is shameful. All countries have their shameful episodes - Eammon de Valera's sympathyfor the Nazis, for example, doesn't do Irish history any favours.

I'm horrified that English people are being taught to despise their history and culture. Yes, own the regrettable bits, but that's not the whole story. Isn't it just that English history is recorded - appalling things may have happened in any country but it wasn't necessarily written down to be condemned.

When my kids had German exchange students staying, I was upset to hear them say they had no pride in their history and culture - and I bet it was because the history teaching in schools now seems so focused on very modern history. There's more to German culture than the Nazis! I asked them if they weren't proud of Germany's artistic, musical and intellectual achievement over the centuries. It's healthy to take pride in your country and culture - it's the start of respect for that of others.

[CoffeeCantata]

Milamoon · Today 06:09
You should try living in wales if you can’t handle a bit of abuse on holiday- like yourself my background is Irish but French Asian so I look white , my sister didn’t by I did ! Spent junior school years in fights for the names they called my sister and now live in a place where they feel comfortable enough to say the most hateful things about the English, my neighbours being a lecturer at a local college stated “ I can’t stand any of them” making reference to anyone who wasn’t welsh! He got a lecture from me and never spoke to him again . The racism in Wales is so covert but it exists in a very big way and if you don’t feel the micro aggression, good for you! 

That's awful, Milamoon - and especially disturbing to hear that a college lecturer was spouting xenophobia - you'd hope they would know better. Can you imagine saying 'I can't stand any of the Welsh!' I can't.

I was upset when my sister got married and held the reception at her house. An obnoxious (drunk) 'plus one' of a friend of the groom starting spouting anti-English venom at me and other guests - for no reason at all - she just didn't like the sound of our voices! And she was a guest in my sister's house and drinking her booze. A horrible experience and off-the-scale rude and uncouth. This was my only personal experience of Celtic xenophobia, but I've heard about lots more anecdotally.

[BodgerLovesMashedPotato]

@PickAChew

It's not racism, it's being a common or garden dickhead.

This!

[namitynamechange]

@DewDew83

But it wasn’t just many centuries ago that England done “shitty” things. It’s not that long ago that English soldiers were over here, shooting innocent people for the crime of being Irish, in Ireland. That’s just one example. In fact we are still suffering as a result of the result.
Yup, and in the last century Welsh children were still being beaten in school for speaking Welsh.

I am NOT condoning this, or trying to whitewash some of the awful things English people have done.

But in the last century, at the same time, children in Cheshire were being beaten in school for speaking in Cheshire accents for example (including in the playground with friends). And highly likely that the teachers doing the reprimanding were Welsh in the case you gave, and locals in the example I gave. Its more complicated that evil English oppressing the Welsh.

[namitynamechange]

Ah, sorry just seen it was a zombie thread!

[gettingoldisshit]

It tends to be the less educated in any society that blame and hate other nationalities so I don't really take to much notice of it! However saying that it really is prevalent in the welsh!

[Milamoon]

I feel your pain and yes you’d think we’d all be wiser. My main concern is once they get rid of the hated pesky English ( including all the NHS staff and SW that came from England in their thousands to help during covid) it’ll be their own underclass they’ll be hating on - and that’s already pretty established too ! Wales currently is a reflection of Thatcher’s Britain at its very worst and the haves and have nots become more and more evident! They’ve gone from a community that cared for the most vulnerable to adopting the very worst of the English right wingers Tory attitude of “I’m alright Jack” Although they have a Labour Run Government it appears they’ve used Orwell’s Animal Farm on which to base their political policies upon !

[justasking111]

Being Irish Catholic but raised in England until I was 17 I came to Wales, met and married a Welshmen. Still here fifty years later so I'm more of an observer. I too have heard Welsh university lecturers spouting xenophobic nonsense. We're in North Wales in an anglicised county because it's a mixture of tourists, and gods waiting room for those from the north west.

As for Thatcherism I dispute that. Solid labour in many areas, North West Wales from Gwynedd right down the Lleyn it's solid plaid. YES there's arguments for not letting anyone not Welsh to own a home here. Yes there's arguments to ban Airbnb. There's also a hatred of landlords.

Now they've addressed landlords by licensing them all. A retraining course and a licence course I was told today is now £300. No fault evictions now banned. Six months notice given to tenants. All tenants will work from a new tenancy contract designed by the Welsh government from 1 June which will further protect tenants.

They're moving onto holiday lets soon. You will need to be licensed.

They cannot by law ban English from buying a home in Wales, but they've tripled the council tax on second homes.

The speed limits in built up areas will be 20 mph from September.

Westminster haven't put into place anything. They're still at the waffling stage.

As I say I have to dispute the Thatcherism remark.

[TomPinch]

@Sunshineandseagulls

That the bombings were abhorrent goes without saying and there can be no justification. However, just to point out that the people who most vehemently wanted to remain part of the UK were British for the most part and many would never, ever consider themselves Irish even though they live on the island of Ireland. You might want to look into the plantations of Ireland and who was responsible for them. A long time ago yes, but still relevant.

I remember in the early 90s a supply teacher from NI telling my class that the Unionists didn't belong in Ireland and they had no right to be there. She talked about them like they were vermin. I felt uncomfortable at the time and disgusted by it since, and whenever I've observed some Unionist circle-the-wagons curmudgeonliness I remember what she said because that explains it.

Whatever nomenclature you or they use is irrelevant: their families have been there for centuries. The plantations are only relevant because people from Ireland now insist on making them so, which is entirely an Irish choice.

[Sunshineandseagulls]

@TomPinch

I remember in the early 90s a supply teacher from NI telling my class that the Unionists didn't belong in Ireland and they had no right to be there. She talked about them like they were vermin. I felt uncomfortable at the time and disgusted by it since, and whenever I've observed some Unionist circle-the-wagons curmudgeonliness I remember what she said because that explains it.

Whatever nomenclature you or they use is irrelevant: their families have been there for centuries. The plantations are only relevant because people from Ireland now insist on making them so, which is entirely an Irish choice.

You misunderstand me completely.
I know Unionist familues have been in NI for centuries and I know they belong there - it's their home. I responded to your earlier comnent because it didn't acknowledge that some people in NI identify as British rather than Irish and showed no understanding of why that is. (I see that a lot on MN actually.)

How people identify is very relevant to them, so I disagree that the nomenclature, as you call it, is irrelevant. Allowing people in NI to identify as either British or Irish or both was a very important part of the Good Friday peace agreement.

Having some knowledge of history helps in understanding the communities in NI as they are today. I don't know what you mean when you say Irish people 'insist on making the plantations relevant'. They're historical fact and an important part of how the place was shaped, that's surely indisputable? I mentioned them earlier only because your comment showed absolutely no awareness of the English role in shaping NI over time. The situation there is far more complex and serious than your glib comment about Irish people setting bombs suggests.

[Blossomtoes]

Anyone interested in an unbiased and thought provoking commentary on N Ireland should watch Once Upon a Time in NI on iplayer. It’s worth five hours of anyone’s time.

[TomPinch]

@Sunshineandseagulls

You misunderstand me completely.
I know Unionist familues have been in NI for centuries and I know they belong there - it's their home. I responded to your earlier comnent because it didn't acknowledge that some people in NI identify as British rather than Irish and showed no understanding of why that is. (I see that a lot on MN actually.)

How people identify is very relevant to them, so I disagree that the nomenclature, as you call it, is irrelevant. Allowing people in NI to identify as either British or Irish or both was a very important part of the Good Friday peace agreement.

Having some knowledge of history helps in understanding the communities in NI as they are today. I don't know what you mean when you say Irish people 'insist on making the plantations relevant'. They're historical fact and an important part of how the place was shaped, that's surely indisputable? I mentioned them earlier only because your comment showed absolutely no awareness of the English role in shaping NI over time. The situation there is far more complex and serious than your glib comment about Irish people setting bombs suggests.

This problem belongs in your island and not the one next door. It's your choice to keep your head in your history but I really can't see it does either community on your island any good.

[Conkersinautumn]

The xenophobia in Wales looms very large, the Brexit figures were quite telling there. A lot of that related to 'English' power and decision making or the perceptionof it. I have a group of friends who live and work in Wales, all of them have experienced being cut out or asked to leave community groups and events, things like litter picking or cooking for the homeless. All bar one have a good amount of spoken welsh, most of them work for the NHS. Those who are thinking of children are having to leave as they don't want to raise children to be subject to such open hostility.

[Sunshineandseagulls]

@TomPinch

This problem belongs in your island and not the one next door. It's your choice to keep your head in your history but I really can't see it does either community on your island any good.

I'm not advocating keeping one's head in history, merely saying that it's as well to understand a situation, including how it has come about, before commenting on it.
NI is on the island of Ireland, but is also part of the UK now. Keeping the peace there is what we all should want.

[TomPinch]

@Sunshineandseagulls

I'm not advocating keeping one's head in history, merely saying that it's as well to understand a situation, including how it has come about, before commenting on it.
NI is on the island of Ireland, but is also part of the UK now. Keeping the peace there is what we all should want.

I understand a lot more than you think, although I accept that I can't expect you to accept that.

I'm just not the slightest bit interested in getting into a drawn-out, pointless and very tedious discussion on a subject that turns far too many people into obsessives, sometimes dangerous ones.

[Sunshineandseagulls]

@TomPinch

I understand a lot more than you think, although I accept that I can't expect you to accept that.

I'm just not the slightest bit interested in getting into a drawn-out, pointless and very tedious discussion on a subject that turns far too many people into obsessives, sometimes dangerous ones.

Well you must admit you're not making that understanding in any way obvious, but we'll leave it at that so.