Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

YABU I do get why your daughter would feel uncomfortable as I have adult friends who get embarrassed about buying bras, sanitary products etc still but I think banning men from sitting outside the changing rooms is not a suitable solution as there are many father’s who need to take their daughters like you had to.

@feelingmehtoday

How many young girls are in the situation where their mum has sadly died and they don’t have any other female in their life?

This was exactly my situation

Plenty of young girls are in the situation where they don’t have a mother or other female to take them bra shopping. Their mother might be alive but not live with them, might be shielding still, working etc. Why can’t either parent do their job to parent their child?

@BlueSurfer

Exactly. I mean in my case I had no choice at all as my mum was dead. But I know this applies equally to others too even if mum is alive.

And by telling young girls that their dad can’t possibly take them to get a new bra or whatever then you are automatically sending them a message that they should be embarrassed about talking about such things near their father which isn’t a healthy message anyway - especially if the father is the key adult in their life

@pleasedonttextmyman

A beach is not a woman's space specifically - a women's changing room is.

but they won't IN the changing room, were they. They're just waiting outside.

No one is forcing you to step out of your cubicle and look at yourself in the communal mirror.

Tell me again why men need to be there? Outside the women's changing room? That their presence is so necessary that women are told (sadly, by other women) that "no one is forcing them to step outside of their cubicle to look at themselves in the communal mirror'?

Women are supposed to be there, are entitled to be able to check the first without being observed by men.

I've lost count of the number of times when I did used to use changing rooms in shops, to open the door/curtain and find a man there, looking me up and down, sizing me up and just generally appraising me. That man could be anybody's husband - ostensibly there for all the reasons that some excusing posters have given already - to give an opinion on their partner.

I wonder if they'd feel the same if they'd seen the looks and heard the comments from their 'd'H's. Vile. Not all, but enough that I won't use the changing rooms now, to my own inconvenience but... men.must.prevail.everywhere.

I really hope that some of you actually catch your staring/gawking/ogling men in the act, it might focus your attention to the benefit of your daughters, if no other woman. Perhaps the idea that your men could be/actually are there for reasons other than offering an opinion on your clothes, will give you food for thought.

Or, will you just blame the woman that your partner is checking out?

My dad also bought me tampons too, as the only parent in my life. Should he have also been banned from doing this, lest he make someone feel uncomfortable? 🙄

@Sirzy

And by telling young girls that their dad can’t possibly take them to get a new bra or whatever then you are automatically sending them a message that they should be embarrassed about talking about such things near their father which isn’t a healthy message anyway - especially if the father is the key adult in their life

Well said - we need to think about attitudes towards this as a society as a whole.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

TheCrowening, Yes, because men being asked to move for a woman are never, ever aggressive, are they?

Honestly...

I’m a bit astounded that some people are too scared to say “excuse me” to a man standing in front of a rack of clothes that they want to look at, for fear of aggression. Really, how often would you expect aggression in return? It’s far more likely they’d just move.

I understand that some people might have reasons for feeling anxious but if it gets to the point that they can’t ask someone politely to move, that’s really something that needs to be addressed as it’s debilitating.

Massive overreaction, sorry.
It's just a bra 🤷‍♀️

I’m a bit astounded that some people are too scared to say “excuse me” to a man standing in front of a rack of clothes that they want to look at, for fear of aggression. Really, how often would you expect aggression in return? It’s far more likely they’d just move.

Agree. Seems an extreme expectation to hold.

Tell me again why men need to be there? Outside the women's changing room?

OK, I’ll tell you again. I want my husband tombstone outside the changing room because I value his opinion.

As an equal, of course.

Tombstone? I meant “to be”.

Tell me again why men need to be there? Outside the women's changing room?

Because they are parenting their daughters.

I quite like Dh around so he can run and grab me a different size, instead of having to redress, take all my stuff and queue again.

It very rarely happens, but it's easier to shop with someone.

I might tell him that half of MN is judging him as a dirty perv because he's collecting a few bras for his wife

They're just sitting.

If anything it's Bravissimo you should take issue with for having the sofas there at all.

Then again they'd likely say, the sofas are there for people to sit on, which they are.

I never said that men should be banned. I appreciate a minority do have a valid reason to be there. I just wish the rest had the social awareness to realise that they don’t need to be there, and there presence may make women uncomfortable so it may be more considerate/tactful to wait elsewhere.

I don’t understand the beach comparison. The beach is a public leisure space where there are lots of reasons for men to be there for leisure. A bra fitting area is not a leisure place men need to be in without good reason.

Can't even imagine living the way to not be able to ask man or anyone for that matter to move so I can pick what I came for to the shop...
It's a basic adult function

cogee, why can't you leave the changing room to show your husband whatever it is you've tried on?

I mean, it's only x, y, z clothing and, opinions are vital and anybody who disagrees is overreacting, so...it's just geography then?

It is for the shops to change this because women's space is for women - and no woman should feel encroached on, in their space, by a man just because his partner has no regard for other women.

LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

Or, will you just blame the woman that your partner is checking out?
talk about yourself, but if MY partner was checking women out, he could find much better places than the sofa of a lingerie store.

I've lost count of the number of times when I did used to use changing rooms in shops, to open the door/curtain and find a man there, looking me up and down, sizing me up and just generally appraising me.
😂 yes dear.

@thinkingaboutitall

OP lingerie shops aren’t really marketed for teen girls getting fittings though. Their target audience is definitely adult couples spicing up their sex life - hence why they allow partners to wait outside etc. Teens aren’t their priority unfortunately

Really?

What sort of lingerie shops do you go to?

Do many couples head for M&S lingerie department with the aim of 'spicing up their sex lives'?

Personally I head there to buy bras. Admittedly, I do like pretty bras, but I doubt they'd spice up anyone's sex life.

I've been to Bravissimo (the lingerie shop) with one of my DDs because she's the sort of shape that they cater for.

As far as I could see the market they're aiming at is women with large breast who want pretty bras rather than having to encase their breasts in something their granny might wear. And it is exactly the sort of shop that caters to teens with large breasts.

Can't imagine why any couple wanting 'racy' underwear would head to Bravissimo; they're far more likely to find what they're looking for down the road at Anne Summers.

@2LostSoulsSwimmingInAFishBowl

I’d be annoyed at having to stand while that lot hogged the sofas and I get why your daughter was uncomfortable, I would have been too as a teenager. My partner is like yours- if I was going to try on bras he’d have gone elsewhere to do his own thing rather than follow me round and then met up later. And he’d have taken the kids with him.

The staff probably weren’t pleased they were there either as I’m sure 3 blokes hanging around and no seats available would have out off potential customers who saw that and walked out without trying on or buying anything.

Nothing at all to add to the thread but I love your username

It is for the shops to change this because women's space is for women - and no woman should feel encroached on, in their space, by a man just because his partner has no regard for other women.

I don't want a "woman space" , I want a PRIVATE space.
People outside the changing room don't bother me.

I refuse communal changing room, and don't appreciate a woman looking at me anymore than a man if you go that way.

Cubicles and men standing outside the changing area are fine by me.

@SchrodingersImmigrant

Can't even imagine living the way to not be able to ask man or anyone for that matter to move so I can pick what I came for to the shop... It's a basic adult function

I can't imagine living like that, either. Sounds restricting and exhausting.

@Woolywolf

I never said that men should be banned. I appreciate a minority do have a valid reason to be there. I just wish the rest had the social awareness to realise that they don’t need to be there, and there presence may make women uncomfortable so it may be more considerate/tactful to wait elsewhere.

I don’t understand the beach comparison. The beach is a public leisure space where there are lots of reasons for men to be there for leisure. A bra fitting area is not a leisure place men need to be in without good reason.

No, they all have a valid reason to be there. It’s just not necessarily a reason you agree with. You are passing all your hang ups about this onto your daughter. Do you always ensure your aren’t anywhere near where a teenage boy could be trying on clothes in case you embarrass him?

@feelingmehtoday

My dad also bought me tampons too, as the only parent in my life. Should he have also been banned from doing this, lest he make someone feel uncomfortable? 🙄

Don't be so silly and defensive. He could put tampons in the supermarket trolley or get them at a pharmacy. That's very different from someone sitting outside a changing room where women are trying on bras.

When my daughter's dad had to take her to buy underwear he went straight to a department store and to the nearest female shop assistant in that department to ask her to kit her out. That assistant would be far more use to a young girl than her dad would be. Then he' arranged to meet her in half an hour and he didn't spend that half hour rummaging around the women's underwear, staring at female shoppers, either.