Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

@feelingmehtoday
Similarly, if the situation arose where she said "those men sitting outside the changing area are looking at / listening to me", I'd reassure her that this is unlikely and that men are often in public areas such as this, and it's OK, she has nothing to feel embarrassed about, etc, so that her view is more balanced. What is the alternative?

So if you were in the situation where your daughter told you men were looking at her you would tell her they weren’t? Surely not the best way to get her to trust her own feelings?
It’s a fact that men stare at young women and make them uncomfortable. Better to try and teach her to deal with that and educate men not to do it rather than tell her it’s not true?

[quote Fairyliz]@feelingmehtoday
Similarly, if the situation arose where she said "those men sitting outside the changing area are looking at / listening to me", I'd reassure her that this is unlikely and that men are often in public areas such as this, and it's OK, she has nothing to feel embarrassed about, etc, so that her view is more balanced. What is the alternative?

So if you were in the situation where your daughter told you men were looking at her you would tell her they weren’t? Surely not the best way to get her to trust her own feelings?
It’s a fact that men stare at young women and make them uncomfortable. Better to try and teach her to deal with that and educate men not to do it rather than tell her it’s not true?[/quote]

If I was sure they weren't because she was behind a locked door or curtain, I mean.

@Fairyliz

My dd has the beginnings of social anxiety, one of the features of which is a belief that others are looking at or judging you in public all of the time. I'd be doing her no favours to reinforce these unhelpful, self limiting beliefs of hers. Trust me. I've suffered with social anxiety myself as a teen. I wish I'd had a mum to help me challenge some of my anxious thinking.

People keep referring to shops as public places. They aren’t. They are private places you are invited into to look and buy at the products on sale. That’s why shopkeepers are allowed to kick you out if you are loitering around or annoying their more valued customers. Beaches are public places. Parks are public places. Streets and squares are public places. Shops are not, and nobody has a “right” to be in them.

[quote feelingmehtoday]@Fairyliz

My dd has the beginnings of social anxiety, one of the features of which is a belief that others are looking at or judging you in public all of the time. I'd be doing her no favours to reinforce these unhelpful, self limiting beliefs of hers. Trust me. I've suffered with social anxiety myself as a teen. I wish I'd had a mum to help me challenge some of my anxious thinking. [/quote]
Agree 100%

I remember once overhearing someone complaining in an M&S shop in the middle east that there were no seats by the changing rooms. The sales assistant explained that they were not allowed seats by the ladies' fitting rooms in case men sat in them and made the women feel uncomfortable.

I personally feel that it would be better if the fitting rooms offered more privacy, so that there was space to queue and have your consultation away from others of any gender. Plenty of people are uncomfortable discussing their size when anyone can overhear.

@Boood

People keep referring to shops as public places. They aren’t. They are private places you are invited into to look and buy at the products on sale. That’s why shopkeepers are allowed to kick you out if you are loitering around or annoying their more valued customers. Beaches are public places. Parks are public places. Streets and squares are public places. Shops are not, and nobody has a “right” to be in them.

I think the point is not that anyone has a "right" to be in them anytime, as they so choose. More so that neither sex has more or less of a right to be in them.

@Boood

People keep referring to shops as public places. They aren’t. They are private places you are invited into to look and buy at the products on sale. That’s why shopkeepers are allowed to kick you out if you are loitering around or annoying their more valued customers. Beaches are public places. Parks are public places. Streets and squares are public places. Shops are not, and nobody has a “right” to be in them.

Exactly. Shops have the right to decide who they do and don't allow onto the premises and which parts of the shop are accessible. This shop has decided that men and women are allowed to wait outside of the changing rooms. Potential customers get to decide whether or not they want to shop there with that in mind. Customers don't get to dictate who sits there, they get to decide whether to stay and spend their money there or not.

@pleasedonttextmyman

You should always centre men and their feelings.

Why do you need to twist everyone comments when you don't agree with them?

WHO said anything like that?

You've spent the entire thread twisting comments and exaggerating.

Meant to add: I think when people say men have a right to be there, they mean that they do because that's what the shop have decided. I don't think people actually believe a bra shop or any shop is public land with a legal right of way!

@Monday26July

Meant to add: I think when people say men have a right to be there, they mean that they do because that's what the shop have decided. I don't think people actually believe a bra shop or any shop is public land with a legal right of way!

Yes, exactly this.

DdraigGoch

we get it, you don't agree with me.
no need to twist things up and make them up entirely, or your argument is pretty thin if thats' the only thing you can come up with.

@Monday26July

Meant to add: I think when people say men have a right to be there, they mean that they do because that's what the shop have decided. I don't think people actually believe a bra shop or any shop is public land with a legal right of way!

Many of us have suggested OP needs to talk to the shop in question so they are aware it's an issue for some customers.

(I would do this after the visit rather than upset my teens durring one)

They may already be aware of course - which many posters seem to be assuming - or they may be oblivious and wish to make changes once aware.

Yeah, I think that's the extent of OP's reach here. She can let the shop know about her experience/feelings and then it's down to them what they do with it. I disagree with people stating that all underwear shops that offer bra fittings should routinely exclude men from waiting near the changing rooms. But those people can of course find a shop that they do feel comfortable in and vote with their wallets.

I do think staff would look at you like you had two heads though if you broached it. Better to contact them via letter to the head office than the shop directly. They would be getting into murky legal waters deciding to make a certain space sex exclusive and likely don't have the power to make that decision at shop level.

Bravissimo which caters for larger breasts - and I know from experience that small back sizes and large cups can be bloddy difficult to find - can be a bit futher than nearest town/'city but ultimately complaining to the shop, finding a different outlet which may be further away or reasearch and shop on-line and dealing with returns are only things OP can control.

Though I agree letter to head office stating concerns would be best - complaints that get handed top down tend to go further - though it may be as simple as moving sofa entriely or to another area rather than going as far as banning men entriely from the area - more discouraging ones who could easily be elsewhere.

If you don't like the way a shop is set up or the customers it attracts, don't go there. Simple!

I totally see where you are coming from. It's the kind of thing the store should address though (as in where they put the sofas could be better), so might be worth writing to them if it really bothered you.

Even if the poor dads/men were trying not to listen it's impossible not to hear what's being said around you, and they may have felt as uncomfortable as your daughter.

Can see both sides. I wouldn't say YABU though.

@2LostSoulsSwimmingInAFishBowl

I’d be annoyed at having to stand while that lot hogged the sofas and I get why your daughter was uncomfortable, I would have been too as a teenager. My partner is like yours- if I was going to try on bras he’d have gone elsewhere to do his own thing rather than follow me round and then met up later. And he’d have taken the kids with him.

The staff probably weren’t pleased they were there either as I’m sure 3 blokes hanging around and no seats available would have out off potential customers who saw that and walked out without trying on or buying anything.

The seating is there for those waiting for customers, not for those waiting to try on. I used to get very annoyed that there weren't the same facilities outside the men's changing rooms for bored wives to sit.

ChainJane large cup sizes small chest measurements can be extremely hard to find - there is very little choice out there especially if you require professional measuring and input.

Bravissimo is specialist shop catering for this - a point made through out -this thread so it really may not be as simple as go elsewhere.

yes there are options - on-line or other stores depending on OP location but how viable they are for OP depends on her circumstances and location.

Though OP when you do have sizes and styles sorted - www.brastop.com/ may be worth a look.

A "public place" is anywhere the public has access to in the uk

@JustGiveMeGin

Does no one buy their husbands/partners boxers? Should women be banned from the men's underwear section in case we embarrass them? Or should we just teach our daughters that it is just an item of clothing and it really doesn't matter who is around when we buy them 🤔

this

I feel Ted and Dougal would need to weigh in about Ireland's biggest lingerie section...

Me and my daughters dad are separated! He takes her underwear shopping for clothes at his house. Why is it an issue?

I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

Yeah paranoid you are! Also, normal/harmless dads? They're partners/husbands most likely!