Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

@amiwastingmytime

I wonder do the same women do the same when their men are buying condoms or viagra? 😂😂

There are quite a few men who when faced with a female checkout assistant would end up buying a comb or something instead. That was before the advent of self-service checkouts and vending machines in the Gent's.

@feelingmehtoday

Why are all these men being "dragged" or "following" behind their partners like dogs on leashes? I find the use of language on this thread fascinating. I must have the only man in the world who actually enjoys shopping with me and in fact walks himself around like a grown adult instead of being "dragged"

I must be weird too as I actually enjoy clothes shopping with my partner. I seem to have this knack of seeing what suits her and picking things for her to try. She values my input (genuinely).

I’ve been in a bravissimo and probably sat on their sofas (if I recall, some way from the actual changing area, they take privacy seriously) and whilst I wouldn’t like to think I made anyone uncomfortable (and would actively try not to) I didn’t feel I shouldn’t have been there

Dd and I carried some bras though M&S the other day as the changing rooms were downstairs. She asked me to carry them as she didn't want everyone to see her underwear. It didn't bother me, men waiting outside a changing room wouldn't bother me too much, but I wouldn't want them eyeing up what DD would be trying on. There are enough men eyeing her up anyway and she's recently become aware of it.

There is no way my DH would have sat on that sofa- and he's quite happy to nip in and purchase items for me.

M&S - males can be in the same rooms as they are for ‘wherever you feel more comfortable and not sex segregated.

They also have at least 2 (reportedly) bra fitters who are trans woman - which again is surely a matter of ‘feeling comfortable’ surely?

@BillMasen

That's probably because you had every right to be there!

@SmokeyDevil

The man you thought was looking was probably picturing himself playing a round of golf instead. Anything to ignore the fact he was in a lingerie shop.

You reacting like this won't help your daughter at all though. There will always be the possibility that a man will be sitting there some day. She has to just ignore that, focus on her appointment and know that the chances of her ever seeing him again are zero, so it doesn't matter.

This was my point too earlier on this thread. If we don't make this weird for our daughters (or ourselves), then it won't be.

@KittenKong - interestingly, in the M&S we were in we weren't allowed in the changing room in the lingerie dept because it was closed, but could use the changing rooms in the men's dept on the same floor who h had curtains, or downstairs which had cubicles with doors. I personally wouldn't be comfortable trying in bras in the men's department fitting room with curtains.

Good lord.

Email bravissimo and ask them to move the sofa. Or shop elsewhere.

Job done.

feelingmehtoday how old are your daughters? Do you seriously believe that teenaged girls are only embarrassed, weirded out or uncomfortable with the things their mothers are? If that's the case for your teenaged daughters then they are not typical in that. Do you teach your daughters to ignore their instinctive feelings discomfort getting undressed around adult men they don't know on the basis it doesn't bother you and the men have "every right" to be separated by a curtain from teenaged girls getting bras fitted?

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

feelingmehtoday how old are your daughters? Do you seriously believe that teenaged girls are only embarrassed, weirded out or uncomfortable with the things their mothers are? If that's the case for your teenaged daughters then they are not typical in that. Do you teach your daughters to ignore their instinctive feelings discomfort getting undressed around adult men they don't know on the basis it doesn't bother you and the men have "every right" to be separated by a curtain from teenaged girls getting bras fitted?

Not sure I said any of this. What a way to make up your own version of someone's life. This thread is utterly, utterly bizarre.

feelingmehtoday you said at 10:55 "if we don't make this weird for our daughters it won't be" what else does that mean but that you think teenaged girls only feel uncomfortable with things if their mothers do/ allow them to?

@UntilYourNextHairBrainedScheme

feelingmehtoday you said at 10:55 "if we don't make this weird for our daughters it won't be" what else does that mean but that you think teenaged girls only feel uncomfortable with things if their mothers do/ allow them to?

It means that we help shape our daughters' attitudes and outlook on all things in life (with our own), and that we instill in them a confidence to deal with every day life situations, such as male members of the public in shops. My teen dd often refuses to ask for things in a restaurant or a shop (silly things like what food she wants or asking a member of staff where the loos are). I'm aware that she is erring on the side of social anxiety and this worries me. So I encourage her to ask for these things herself and when she says "but I'll sound stupid", I insist that she doesn't at all sound stupid; she sounds completely normal and this how she begins to learn to deal with such things by herself as an adult when I am not there beside her. I hope that by doing this, I am building her confidence and independence in social contexts. Since she is 3 years off adulthood, I feel this will serve her well. Similarly, if the situation arose where she said "those men sitting outside the changing area are looking at / listening to me", I'd reassure her that this is unlikely and that men are often in public areas such as this, and it's OK, she has nothing to feel embarrassed about, etc, so that her view is more balanced. What is the alternative? Raising her to feel embarrassed and ashamed of being a woman and all that it entails? I don't see how that does her any favours.

@feelingmehtoday you’re doing a good job imo. It’s a parent’s job to equip their child with confidence. When parents baby their teens and do things for them it does them no favours in the end, they’ll be adults soon enough and need to be able to ask for things or they won’t be able to function.

Men are perfectly entitled as it stands to wait outside a changing room, until such a time comes where they’re banned (which ain’t gonna happen). There seem to be quite a few posters on MN raising their children to be frightened of men.

It means that we help shape our daughters' attitudes and outlook on all things in life (with our own), and that we instill in them a confidence to deal with every day life situations, such as male members of the public in shops

There are times and places though. We need need be careful not to teach our dds to think its ok for men to be everywhere all the time and their discomfort ( often as a result of behaviour from men) is secondary to the feelings of these men and acceptance of the complete lack of awareness of when their presence might not be appreciated.

Girls and women didn't wake up one day and decide to start kicking off about men. It's a result of all the things that have happened to women ajd girls throughout their lives at the hands of men.

This thread is a good example of how all anyone cares about is how these poor men must be bored and how we must not make them.not feel welcome.

When seriously that sofa needs moving and a decent level of privacy enforced. But the girls really don't matter these days. Not even in a shop selling items and services specifically for girls and women.

Teaching girls they have no right to space away from men or a reasonable level of privacy does not ever end well for girls.

@Whatwouldscullydo

It means that we help shape our daughters' attitudes and outlook on all things in life (with our own), and that we instill in them a confidence to deal with every day life situations, such as male members of the public in shops

There are times and places though. We need need be careful not to teach our dds to think its ok for men to be everywhere all the time and their discomfort ( often as a result of behaviour from men) is secondary to the feelings of these men and acceptance of the complete lack of awareness of when their presence might not be appreciated.

Girls and women didn't wake up one day and decide to start kicking off about men. It's a result of all the things that have happened to women ajd girls throughout their lives at the hands of men.

This thread is a good example of how all anyone cares about is how these poor men must be bored and how we must not make them.not feel welcome.

When seriously that sofa needs moving and a decent level of privacy enforced. But the girls really don't matter these days. Not even in a shop selling items and services specifically for girls and women.

Teaching girls they have no right to space away from men or a reasonable level of privacy does not ever end well for girls.

Given that moving the sofa isn’t in your hands, what would you practically advise is the best course of action here? To tell your DD the men shouldn’t be there and walk out?

Teaching girls they have no right to space away from men or a reasonable level of privacy does not ever end well for girls.

I would never teach her this, of course. And it very blatantly isn't what I said. But in this particular example in the public area of a shop, where my dd would be behind a curtain / door in a changing room away from any men that happen to be in the shop, I would certainly give her this message that she is absolutely fine and need not worry or feel embarrassed.

@MissCherryCakeyBun

Are we banning husbands and fathers from beaches too? Just asking so I can explain to my 4 daughters why their dads not allowed on the beach or at swimming pools anymore.....after all is a woman in a bikini or swimming costume any different to lingerie?

Making a problem out of a perceived fear of a man waiting for his wife or daughter in the Tesco clothing section? After all they sell bras too.....it's not a secret that women wear underwear it's the 21st century we don't get blue water periods either and I'm pretty sure most men realise this too.

If a woman is on a beach, she has chosen to be there. She will be wearing clothing she feels comfortable in which could be anything from a bikini to a burkini. Going for a bra-fitting is rather less optional and can be rather difficult for self-conscious teenagers (which is a perfectly normal stage of growing up and applies to both sexes, frankly I was even self-conscious around my hamster at one point while growing up). The fewer strangers around the better.

When your daughters feel self-conscious around strangers (particularly male ones), do let us know and we can be just as sympathetic in return.

@DdraigGoch

If it’s really important to someone that nobody male be in the vicinity when they’re having a bra fitting then they can call up various shops and find out that accommodates that. It’s not really for any specific shop to have to do that. They can run their shop how they wish and let customers decide where to spend their money.

Honestly I'd have spoken to the staff amd told them that the sofa is not in an appropriate place and that they should have more awareness of the privacy issue. That they will he expecting teens akd tweets as well as women who gave had mastectomies and surgeries etc who will not be happy discussing it in earshot of men sat on the sofa.

And yes tbh I'd have taken her out because her discomfort in this situation is not unreasonable

I don’t think I need to “teach” my daughter anything different. She looked a bit uncomfortable and I ignored it/didn’t draw attention to it just quietly wondered why the men were there as it seemed unnecessary.
It totally normal and natural for teenage girls to be insecure about their bodies and feel awkward about them, confidence comes with time. I’m sure she’ll grow out of it as everyone does. I don’t think me saying something like “I see you are uncomfortable that there are men there, don’t be they are allowed to sit there” would make any difference. She wouldn’t magically stop being a normal insecure teenager just because I said that to “teach” her that she should put up with men being there. She’s obvious fine with men being in shops, just not fine with them being within earshot of her bra fitting which I think is a normal valid thing for a teenage girl to feel and I don’t think it’s justified to ask her to change. I think it’s less valid to insist that all men have an automatic right to sit outside bra fitting rooms-there is just no advantage to them being there and no way to tell if they are creeps or not. I think it’s better to focus on teaching men and boys that there are some situations that women may be uncomfortable with their presence that they should avoid-bra fitting being an obvious one. So they really miss out by avoiding this situation?

*do they really miss out? I meant to say

OP - I'm not sure why the recent defensive reply. I was addressing a pp who repeatedly challenged me on how I parent my daughter. Hence my post. How others parent theirs is of course equally valid.

@Woolywolf

I was also very clearly giving a scenario where my dd might say "I'm uncomfortable because ....", and what my reply might be (as you will see if you re-read my post). If she said nothing at all, I'd equally say nothing at all and just get on with the bra fitting, IYSWIM

@Woolywolf

I don’t think I need to “teach” my daughter anything different. She looked a bit uncomfortable and I ignored it/didn’t draw attention to it just quietly wondered why the men were there as it seemed unnecessary. It totally normal and natural for teenage girls to be insecure about their bodies and feel awkward about them, confidence comes with time. I’m sure she’ll grow out of it as everyone does. I don’t think me saying something like “I see you are uncomfortable that there are men there, don’t be they are allowed to sit there” would make any difference. She wouldn’t magically stop being a normal insecure teenager just because I said that to “teach” her that she should put up with men being there. She’s obvious fine with men being in shops, just not fine with them being within earshot of her bra fitting which I think is a normal valid thing for a teenage girl to feel and I don’t think it’s justified to ask her to change. I think it’s less valid to insist that all men have an automatic right to sit outside bra fitting rooms-there is just no advantage to them being there and no way to tell if they are creeps or not. I think it’s better to focus on teaching men and boys that there are some situations that women may be uncomfortable with their presence that they should avoid-bra fitting being an obvious one. So they really miss out by avoiding this situation?

It’s pretty clear you’d already decided you were being reasonable when you started the thread. You’ve had so many replies telling you you’re BU but don’t seem to have taken a single one on board.

In your shoes if my teen felt uncomfortable I’d have supported them in leaving. But i would have made it clear that that was her stuff and something we could talk about, and we could contact other shops to see whether they had fitting rooms that were women only. I wouldn’t want to push her into something she wasn’t comfortable with.

I’m not sure a shop would willingly put themselves in a position of needing to gatekeep the validity of someone’s reason to be sat there. We’ve established there are situations where a woman might need or want someone there for support. I wouldn’t expect a sales assistant to start quizzing men to check whether their shopping companion really could do it on her own or not.

@Woolywolf

I also didn't use the word "teach" at all in my original reply to the pp who repeatedly questioned me on my own dd. The word "teach" was brought in later by another pp.