Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

@edwinbear me and my daughter would avoid. I’ve never spent time in the men’s underwear department unnecessarily. If my husband or 18 year old son were browsing the men’s underwear in M&S I would automatically browse somewhere else as helping them choose underwear doesn’t interest me/they just choose without us discussing it and I don’t need to watch them do it. I’ve not really thought about it but I’ve not really chosen underwear for my son since he was a young teen-I think he’s probably given me some to pay for when we’ve been shopping together but there’s not much of a shopping process and I think he just buys his own/tends to shop for men’s clothes with dad. Obviously that would have been different if I was a single parent.
Men are entitled to feel uncomfortable about women seeing them buy underwear but I do think the male gaze/fetishisation of breasts/leering women with large breasts put up with from a young age makes bra fitting very different to men buying underwear.

[quote edwinbear]@tallduckandhandsome possibly because her dad/brother is choosing pants? i.e exactly the same reason these men were in a bra shop.[/quote]
What 15yo girl goes pants shopping with her dad or brother?

I know that particular branch of bravissimo and I agree it's a bit inappropriate. It's like a small and intimate lounge area, and when I went , the assistant commented from that space on the fitting, as the 2-3 cubicles there are tiny. Not nice for a young girl having a first fitting.

@unsureofneighbour

How many of us have been leered at, been made uncomfortable by comments even groped by men? 50%, 60%, 70% or more? Has it happened to you?

Yes some of the these men will be sad old loners but I imagine many of them will be husbands and fathers.

I don't even know how to respond to this stupidity. Literally stunned into silence.

joins hyperbole party

I don’t understand? Do you not believe that husbands and fathers can possibly be perverts/the same men that the majority of women report being harassed by? Do you think that every man that leers/harasses/abuses women is unmarried and doesn’t have children. That’s very naive.

I have no idea whether random men, married or not, are creepy or not-that’s why I’d rather they weren’t in earshot of my daughters bra fitting if it can be avoided (or they aren’t a carer). Just in case they are creeps, which is a definite possibility. There are unfortunately men that will happily stare at a 15 year old and think about her boobs whilst their wife is in the changing room.

OP has actually answered my question very eloquently above (thank you). The point I’m (clumsily) trying to make, is that if the consensus is that women/girls are entitled to privacy when choosing their underwear, that is a courtesy that should also be extended to men/boys.

@edwinbear

OP has actually answered my question very eloquently above (thank you). The point I’m (clumsily) trying to make, is that if the consensus is that women/girls are entitled to privacy when choosing their underwear, that is a courtesy that should also be extended to men/boys.

Your point didn’t needed to be made. No one suggested leering at boys

@unsureofneighbour

How many of us have been leered at, been made uncomfortable by comments even groped by men? 50%, 60%, 70% or more? Has it happened to you?

Yes some of the these men will be sad old loners but I imagine many of them will be husbands and fathers.

I don't even know how to respond to this stupidity. Literally stunned into silence.

joins hyperbole party

Given 80% of women have experienced sexual harassment, your faux naïveté is laughable.

Was anyone actually leering at OP’s DD in the changing room waiting room? I missed that part of the post. I read that there just happened to be some disinterested partners sat on the sofa entertaining DC.

You’re the one who said boys deserve privacy when choosing underwear in the pants section at M&S, edwin, presumably so they don’t get leered at.

@pleasedonttextmyman

if they don’t have a good reason to be there.

so you want a lanyard for the men who you think have a good enough reason?

I think the staff should say “excuse me sir are you here for a fitting or are you a parent or carer? No, then please could I kindly ask you to wait upstairs? This is the bra fitting area which some women feel more comfortable to be women only and the seats are reserved for our customers waiting to be fitted”. I can’t think of a good reason a man would object to this, and women would know for sure that if there was a man waiting in earshot that it was because he was a parent/carer and had to be there. I guess they could give the parents/carers lanyards but I don’t think it’s necessary.

This thread now has me thinking of any men from now on will be like rabbit caught in headlights when they inadvertently find themselves in the middle of the "ladies aisle" and trying to make an escape without being seen a'la Father Ted where all the priests have to make a run for it

There really should not be a sitting area outside the underwear section outside the changing area. The sitting area should be somewhere else, but not directly opposite the those changing areas.

I find it uncomfortable when men are sitting outside the female changing area in the underwear section. I just think they should move the seats somewhere else. I mean men can’t entry a female changing room and I don’t think most women will come out in their bra or underwear to show what they have tried on.

In other areas of the shop it’s fine…. I.e if your trying a dress on etc you can show your male companion. So I would agree with OP.

@Yondergoat

I assume from some of these completely ridiculous comments that most pps have never actually been to Bravissimo? It really isn't a shop where a dad would " grab a pack of pants". It is a shop set up to cater to women with large breasts. Nothing else.

My 13 yo DD refused to go in there. I have never been embarrassed around underwear but she is. She didn't get it from me. She was mortified to be measured, really didn't want the assistant to look at her in the bra, wouldn't let me wait outside but I had to look at the wall... fortunately the only people being allowed to go downstairs to the fitting area were those being fitted. Everyone else was kept upstairs in the main shop.

I have also walked out of M&S after finding men hanging about in the way of everything I went in to look at, as other people have said. There are so many women seemingly incapable of going anywhere on their own.

Not entirely sure the OP has been to a Bravissimo store either, TBH. She's avoided answering questions on the store layout.

In my experience (and I've been to several stores), the sofa area is away from the point where a member of staff will greet you and check you in, and even further away from the actual individual cubicles, which are completely out of sight and out of earshot of the waiting area.

There are intimate conversations that go on in the changing rooms. They are overheard - but only by other women in the changing rooms. No one sat on a sofa can hear the scooping conversation.

If we were talking M&S where chairs are often within actual sight of the cubicles, the OP might have a point.

Yabu. My husband would wait for me. I'd not tell him to wait outside.

A lanyard? Really? Why does EVERYTHING have to be such a big deal these days?!

@Maggiemay92

A lanyard? Really? Why does EVERYTHING have to be such a big deal these days?!

It's quite something isn't it? Men with a lanyard probably aren't perverts, men without a lanyard are high risk.

At my local store, there are only comfy seats 'near' the changing rooms, so sending a man back upstairs is sending him to browse clothing, bras and swimsuits. There's nothing else to do upstairs. Not entirely sure that's going to make anyone feel more comfortable!

women would know for sure that if there was a man waiting in earshot that it was because he was a parent/carer and had to be there.

Would this make women feel more comfortable, though? Would this have made a difference to your dd? I suspect not. He's still male.

@Mockolate

This thread now has me thinking of any men from now on will be like rabbit caught in headlights when they inadvertently find themselves in the middle of the "ladies aisle" and trying to make an escape without being seen a'la Father Ted where all the priests have to make a run for it

It probably isn't neccessary for anybody not waiting to try something on to sit in that specific area.

Yanbu. I also think this is a bit odd.
Pp saying they doubt most men are interested sound pretty naive to me.

@Smeds

I was actually in Bravissimo this morning, my DH went for a coffee as he would rather the ground swallowed him up than sit on a sofa in the shop. "It's not a place for me, I don't need to be there" were his exact words. I was in there for an hour in total so he completely made the right decision.

I'm never creeped out by men who do sit and wait. I find it a bit amusing, as they always look bored and slightly uncomfortable. Why put yourself through that?! I tend to assume they have been told to wait by their other half rather than making an independent decision to sit there.

It would annoy me if men/children were taking up the seats intended for queuing women. Reminds me of having to visit the antenatal ward for growth scans and I couldn't get a seat because they were taken up by peoples partners/extended family/bags. Its just rude and common courtesy in all scenarios that you should give up your seat for the people actually using the service.

I’m laughing at the idea of your husband magically having said those exact words just when a thread about this topic popped up on MN 😂 like what even happened for him to feel the need to say that? Surely as an established couple you already have encountered this situation before? Was there a reason he announced ‘it’s not a place for me, I don’t need to be there’ to you? Were you trying to drag him in or did he just pipe up with it for some kudos as he wandered off for a coffee?

@aspadeaspade

Not entirely sure the OP has been to a Bravissimo store either, TBH. She's avoided answering questions on the store layout.

In my experience (and I've been to several stores), the sofa area is away from the point where a member of staff will greet you and check you in, and even further away from the actual individual cubicles, which are completely out of sight and out of earshot of the waiting area.

OP has said the changing rooms around the corner from the waiting sofa, so you can’t see women in the cubicles but you can hear them.

What more do you need to know?

The man you thought was looking was probably picturing himself playing a round of golf instead. Anything to ignore the fact he was in a lingerie shop.

You reacting like this won't help your daughter at all though. There will always be the possibility that a man will be sitting there some day. She has to just ignore that, focus on her appointment and know that the chances of her ever seeing him again are zero, so it doesn't matter.

@WeatherForecast

I assure you he said it. I had asked him if he wanted to come in and wait (knowing fine well he wouldn't) and that was his reply. The fact this thread came up on the same day is a genuine coincidence. Its been six years since I last had a fitting in Bravissimo and we don't usually go clothes shopping together. We're just not that kind of couple.

He wouldn't put himself somewhere he didn't need to be and neither would I. I wouldn't go in to a barbershop with him and take up a seat whilst he had his haircut for example. There's no space for me. I'm not a customer.

I don’t think most women will come out in their bra or underwear to show what they have tried on

I’m obviously not most women.

I quite like that.