Men in lingerie shops

[Woolywolf]

I went to bravissimo yesterday with my 15 year old daughter. The fitting rooms are downstairs and there are some sofas where you wait for your fitting. There were 3 men sat on the sofas (husbands/partners waiting for their wives/girlfriends I think). One of them has 2 kids with him. So the women waiting to use the fitting rooms were standing in a queue next to these men.

This was the first time my daughter had been to a bra fitting at this store and I could tell she was feeling uncomfortable telling her size to the staff and holding a handful of bras in front of these men. I may have been being paranoid but I think I caught one of the men looking a bit too hard at what all the women in the queue were trying on, but otherwise they just seemed like normal/harmless dads.

But am I being unreasonable thinking it was a bit inappropriate for men/kids to be waiting outside lingerie changing rooms. If my husband had been there, he probably would have taken himself off to a different shop while we went to a bra shop as he obviously wouldn’t need to be there. If we had younger kids with us, I’d ask him to take them someplace more interesting instead of having them waiting/taking up seats in an underwear shop asking loud questions about bras as one of the kids was.

I know there’s no shame in shopping for bras/it shouldn’t be embarrassing it just seems a bit unnecessary for men to be there. I don’t know if I would have noticed/cared if my teen hadn’t been with me, who was already a bit nervous about having a bra fitting.

How do you manage to buy sports swimwear when the changing rooms in most sports shops are unisex and in the middle of the shop?

That’s a very different situation to bravissimo. I wouldn’t have a problem trying on swimwear or underwear in a normal unisex shop. In bravissimo, you have detailed discussions about the size and shape of your boobs and they say things like “scoop them up” “your spilling out of the cup” “make sure your nipples are in the middle of the cup” “That style lifts and separates the breasts”. Quite intimate things that a lot of women wouldn’t be happy with strange men overhearing. I think it would be naive to think that some men could hear that kind of conversation without conjuring up images in their heads, and it’s impossible to tell whether the men sitting outside are that kind of man or not.

@beastlyslumber slippery slope....if things can be just for women then equally things should just be for men, no? Or would that wipeout the equality we have been fighting hundreds of years for

DH often waits for me outside changing rooms and I him, usually on our phones, in the same way I would with a female friend, we're out shopping together I'm not going to be anymore than five minutes every time I go into a changing room why would I banish him to Costa each time, it's ridiculous. OP said the changing rooms were round the corner nothing could be seen, yes a teen might be uncomfortable queuing with a bra, if she was that mortified you OP could've held them while they waited, but most teens are uncomfortable having a bra fitted regardless and a lot of teens are mortified over things that are absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about. I am very pro women's spaces but they weren't in the space! They were just idly waiting for whichever female they were with be that partner, friend, mother, daughter. I'm sure shop assistants don't allow random men to just walk in and set up camp outside a changing room just on the off chance they hear a bra size. I work with sexual offending honestly this isn't what you should be worrying about.

beastlyslumber

You are on the wrong thread, we are not talking about communal changing rooms..

Which I have always refused to use personally, as I refuse to use communal changing areas in gyms or swimming pools.

We are talking about private cubicles, cabins or whatever and men being in the shop, or at the door of the changing area.

Where's the middle ground then? Should someone with dementia who needs their husband with them never have a bra fitting? (even though weight loss often happens with someone with dementia).

Where do you draw the line? Should men have to do a questionnaire to see whether they're allowed there? What about a single dad to a 10 year old? Should he just leave her with a strange adult alone to talk about her breasts?

according to MN, women are uncomfortable with men in general.

Yep, that's how it always comes across on here.
I swear, it's getting more and more 1950s like on here (I've been here a long time and it's getting worse!)

Woolywolf

now you are talking absolute rubbish, or you've never bought a sports bras/swimsuit or chest guard.

[quote JustGiveMeGin]@beastlyslumber slippery slope....if things can be just for women then equally things should just be for men, no? Or would that wipeout the equality we have been fighting hundreds of years for [/quote]
Not sure any women would object to giving men privacy when they're buying underwear.

Honestly it wouldn’t bother me. I don’t bring my husband shopping personally because for me shopping is a solo activity to be done quickly but I wouldn’t think a man was waiting outside to listen in on my bra fitting appointment.

If it made her uncomfortable you always could have come back later or asked for a far away cubicle.

Taking your child to buy underwear (bras), hygiene products (tampons) is a normal, everyday part of parenting, for mothers and fathers. This thread is shocking, I had no idea in this day and age a minority of people felt like this!

I had no idea that most teenage girls go bra shopping with their dads! I’ve never met any that would be happy with that. I can only imagine it happening in special circumstances where the dad is the only adult in the girl’s life. I suspect that this is one of those MN normal things that is very rare in real life.
Can anyone really say that their teen daughter and husband choose to buy bras together instead of the teen going with a female adult?

I'm currently breastfeeding a baby and this thread has made me wonder if some posters think we should also ban all men from anywhere a woman is feeding her baby? I've fed my baby in baby groups with fathers present and in busy restaurants with men at nearby tables. Should I have requested they move first? Should I have moved elsewhere? It's madness. Men are everywhere. If we don't make these things strange in the first place, there's no issue.

Christ on a bike.

Some men would be better off abandoning their wives and daughters on weekends and taking up golf or cycling.

Being in a shop with female would seem to be a crime... or maybe some people on Mumsnet are just bonkers.

Gosh, I remember being a late teen (so a while ago) and shopping in Top Shop or Miss Selfridge (or one of those shops) and the shopping assistants IN the changing area were male as much as female!

I don't shop there anymore, but I am guessing some posters on here would have had a fit

Men giving out the plastic thing for the number of items, or carrying bunch of clothes etc.. the horror.

I would understand people disagreeing a lot more than I understand people demanding a female only shop and trying to ban male from everywhere. WTF am I supposed to do with my son for a start..

Can anyone really say that their teen daughter and husband choose to buy bras together instead of the teen going with a female adult?*

still cannot comprehend that sometimes people do things they HAVE to? No?

OP, could you ring the Daily Mail?

You and your daughter could do a really good sad face.

@pleasedonttextmyman

Woolywolf

now you are talking absolute rubbish, or you've never bought a sports bras/swimsuit or chest guard.

Nope, never bought a chest guard. I’m not sure what one is but I know that they’ve not been sexualised in the way that women’s lingerie has so I doubt being fitted for one is a similar experience/it’s be safe to assume that no man could find that an erotic experience in the same way that Pervy men could find women shopping for lacy bras erotic. I’ve only ever been fitted for a sports bra in bravissimo, or tried them on myself in the changing room without discussing with a store assistant.

Are you saying @Woolywolf that because most girls go shopping for bras with a female the ones who need to go with a man shouldn't?

@Chikapu

I used to work at La Senza, the number of men who thought they should be allowed in the actual fitting room while their gf/wife tried on lingerie was astounding. I used to ask them if they were allowed into the fitting rooms at any other shop and why they thought it was different because it was underwear. There was a lot of pouting and 'it's not fairs'

I wouldn’t bother taking my DH to a bra store because he would be bored and probably rush me. But are husbands not allowed to come into fitting rooms at someplace like the Gap or Next? I genuinely never knew that and I think we have unwittingly broken that rule many times. Nobody has ever stopped us. My DH is good at knowing what goes with what and how to style things so it is very helpful to have him with me and it’s just easier if he’s in the room. He sees me undressed elsewhere so it’s not a big deal.

What about my mum, is that against the rules as well? Or is it just people of the opposite sex?

@pleasedonttextmyman

Gosh, I remember being a late teen (so a while ago) and shopping in Top Shop or Miss Selfridge (or one of those shops) and the shopping assistants IN the changing area were male as much as female!

I don't shop there anymore, but I am guessing some posters on here would have had a fit

Men giving out the plastic thing for the number of items, or carrying bunch of clothes etc.. the horror.

I would understand people disagreeing a lot more than I understand people demanding a female only shop and trying to ban male from everywhere. WTF am I supposed to do with my son for a start..

I certainly wouldn’t have a problem with a man working in the changing room of a normal clothes shop/giving out the keys. Not sure why anyone would find that horrific. That’s very different to having a bra fitting as bras have been sexualised to the point that many girls and women feel uncomfortable buying them unfortunately, and an in depth bra fitting discussion is quite intimate/private whereas trying a dress on alone when there is nothing to overhear is not at all.

@Woolywolf

How do you manage to buy sports swimwear when the changing rooms in most sports shops are unisex and in the middle of the shop?

That’s a very different situation to bravissimo. I wouldn’t have a problem trying on swimwear or underwear in a normal unisex shop. In bravissimo, you have detailed discussions about the size and shape of your boobs and they say things like “scoop them up” “your spilling out of the cup” “make sure your nipples are in the middle of the cup” “That style lifts and separates the breasts”. Quite intimate things that a lot of women wouldn’t be happy with strange men overhearing. I think it would be naive to think that some men could hear that kind of conversation without conjuring up images in their heads, and it’s impossible to tell whether the men sitting outside are that kind of man or not.

The point is your daughter needs to get used to the fact men going shopping

Bravissimo are not going to ban men

What a stupid thing to get worked up over

@NerrSnerr

Why can't some things be just for women and girls

It has been repeated on this thread on numerous occasions that some women and girls need support to buy bras, whether it's because they're young and would like someone with them, or whether they have a disability or cognitive impairment that means they need support. If the person who supports them is a man what should happen? Should these people just not buy bras?

This is such a ridiculous argument, though. The vast majority of women and girls do have a female who can take them to a bra fitting. There are female fitters who are very good, no one else needs to be in the changing room with her, and a man can wait away from the changing area so as not to intimidate other women and girls who are there. It might be the case from time to time that a man NEEDS to be in a woman's space, but there's usually a workaround. I've been asked more than once by a man to take his young daughter to the loo, for example. Most men realise that it's not appropriate for them to be in women's spaces. If it's genuinely unavoidable then of course people will understand, but really, how often is there no alternative?

They were sitting minding their own business and you think they should have moved somewhere else because people were talking about bras?

YABU

That’s very different to having a bra fitting as bras have been sexualised to the point that many girls and women feel uncomfortable buying them unfortunately,

Same argument with breastfeeding. Breasts have been sexualised over the years, too. But if I thought about that every time my baby needed feeding in public I'd never leave the house for fear of sexualisation of my breasts, which are to me just my baby's food source. Cant you see that we have to change the way we think about these things as opposed to getting worked up about men being in the same area?

@pleasedonttextmyman I'm talking specifically about bravissimo

I find it seriously unhealthy to bring up girls and give them the idea that a man in a SHOP is wrong, that you are vulnerable if a man is standing at the door or the till.

You'd be better off warning them about places where they REALLY are vulnerable, not the sofa of a packed M&S lingerie store where most of the clients are my grand-mother and her friends.