To wonder why MN is so unpleasant about SAHMs?

[crinklyfoil]

While I know there are cases when women aren’t married and don’t own property and are in a vulnerable position, I’m not talking about posters who are concerned about women.

I’m talking about posters who believe that SAHMs have no say in finances, should ‘get a job’ and are somehow lazy.

A FT childcare place costs around £800 a month. If you have more than one child, realistically for many women, ‘getting a job’ will mean working at a loss. Not to mention problems with shift work at the lower paid end of the spectrum (retail work and care work.)

Is it really so awful that having a SAHM might just work really well for some families? That some women might thoroughly enjoy it and that it’s part of a mutually beneficial relationship in the context of the whole family?

Or should everyone just get a job, regardless of how miserable and poor it makes the whole family?!

viva - real life is rarely that simple or binary. though. It’s definitely possible for a SAHM to feel that she has “sacrificed” some parts of her life / identity, yet also know that she is “privileged” at the same time. Just like someone who goes to work may see it as a sacrifice in some ways (ie time/consuming and a means to an end), yet they might similarly feel they are privileged to have the opportunities / salary / colleagues that role affords them.

I’m not sure what you want SAHMs to say?

If they feel they have sacrificed their careers to facilitate their husbands - well, they probably have. There will always be truth in that. But also, there are other benefits to the SAHM lifestyle which will mitigate against the “sacrifice.” Often it’s a fine tipping point. An emotionally-driven decision perhaps? We all ask ourselves, “Why am I doing this and what if..,,” at times. SAHMs are no different to anyone else. I don’t know why a SAHM saying she has sacrificed her career would bother you so much?

@mafted

That doesn't even make sense.

Working is not opting out of parenting.

That's the point. But men can use to work to opt out and that's all fine and accepted.

Women want to work and be a parent and it's a negative.

Plenty of women balance work and parenting. But are allowed to use work to do very little and its acceptable.

The example used was the pp saying
My husband obviously relishes the challenge. He knows he would hate looking after our child full time,
It was argued that if a woman said this she would be judged.
What I'm asking is should the Men that say this be judged too or should all parents be able to say they'd hate to look after the children full time?

Working isn't opting out of parenting. A person preferring to work should not be viewed as opting out. At all.

But let's be honest. On the whole, working mums do far more for their kids than working dads. Not always, but in many of the cases. Which adds another layer, to why it's so ridiculous that men are fine working full time and women are viewed as opting out.

As an example a man who works AND does the school run is seen as an involved father who is taking responsibility for his children. A working mum who does the school run, is just viewed as a mum. And then viewed as probably not that involved because the kids go to after school club.

Its the whole way that men and women are viewed in general.

All parents should be viewed as just doing what suits their family. There doesn't need to be judgement at all. Not high praise nor disgust.

@DanniDuck

Well. This thread, particularly the last 10 pages, proves the OP's point. That some people working mums/working women are vile towards stay at home mums.

I said it before and I will say it again. It's pure jealousy. You wouldn't feel the need to bash and berate others lifestyles if you were happy with your own.

And the same is true the other way round, some SAHMs are nasty to those who work. Essentially it is that some women are nasty and judgemental to others, and people such as yourself like to fan the flames.

@DanniDuck

Well. This thread, particularly the last 10 pages, proves the OP's point. That some people working mums/working women are vile towards stay at home mums.

I said it before and I will say it again. It's pure jealousy. You wouldn't feel the need to bash and berate others lifestyles if you were happy with your own.

And plenty, including you have been vile to working mums.

There's also been threads linked where people have piled on wohm.

Proving the point. That MN isn't against sahm. Just simply that some people are dicks.

@cosima8

“One thing I dislike about this threads is the narrative you often see that DH loves his job, thrives on the pressure, will never retire, extremely hardworking & ambitious, etc.”

Well, many men are like this and when you are married to one, there’s not a lot you can do about it. As I said, I know a lot of women who SAH, not just for the pre-school years, but beyond. I probably know hundreds. Think about it - you wouldn’t SAH if your husband wasn’t happy, would you? Who does that? How would that work?

Also, these type of men tend not to just have “a job” or “a salary” as such. Or if they do, they have money invested so that its working for them. My DH has always been involved in about 10-20 business interests at any time. If he doesn’t like something, he changes it. He could retire, but he’s doesn’t want to. There are loads like this - entrepreneurs who have sold companies and then get approached for non-exec positions. They can pick and choose. There are the bankers too and I guess they are salaried and locked into a role. But they also invest in other things. I don’t know a single SAHM family where it would be doomsday if he lost his job. It doesn’t work like that. If a husband felt constantly under pressure while the wife “swanned about,” chances are the marriage wouldn’t survive too long

Also, I do believe some men (not all) are happier when they have a distinct role in the family to financially provide and they can just get on with it. My husband is definitely like this and he’s far from being the only one. You can’t change people, not really. If a man like that marries a woman (like me) who feels a lot of guilt about using nannies or who discovers actually, she really enjoys being with the kids everyday herself and she’s good at it - then the SAHM model just happens naturally because both facilitate each other to live the life they want to lead. It’s just different personalities within different marriages really. I think certain types of men may attract certain types of women and vice versa - whether they realise it or not! Some people like doing everything 50/50, some hate that and prefer more defined roles. It evolves naturally. It really doesn’t matter and there is no blueprint for these things. As long as the couple are happy - who cares what anyone else thinks?

The most sensible post I've seen on this thread

@DanniDuck - who is being “vile” to sahms? Don’t be ridiculous

@DanniDuck

Well. This thread, particularly the last 10 pages, proves the OP's point. That some people working mums/working women are vile towards stay at home mums.

I said it before and I will say it again. It's pure jealousy. You wouldn't feel the need to bash and berate others lifestyles if you were happy with your own.

Some people are vile to SAHMs, but I haven't seen so much of it on the last pages of this thread.

What I've seen quite a lot of is SAHMs saying: "why does everyone pick on us?"

And the answers which come back are pretty varied, ranging from some spiteful ones to some ones expressing concern whether you think valid or not about women being financially dependent.

I just don't think its very grown up or self-aware to paint this in purely one-sided terms and portraying it purely as jealousy is just childish.

There is a lot of mistrust and suspicion and name calling on both sides of this argument and WOHMs have to put their hands up to this.

But I have lost count of the amount of threads where SAHMs start threads saying: "why does everyone hate us?" and then when people respond, they start lashing out with "why did you have kids if you don't want to raise them?" etc. And "you're jealous". Which if you've read the thread, you'll very clearly see isn't true. The last few pages have been about precisely the opposite -- that lots of women want to go back to work but are slated for doing so.

We all need to grow up a bit, to moderate the extreme language, the name-calling and the lack of empathy. On both sides. But please don't come on here moaning about being picked on by WOHMs and then throw out the same nasty cliches that you wouldn't want directed at you.

If they feel they have sacrificed their careers to facilitate their husbands - well, they probably have
No more than a father divorcing and wants 50/50 so not to pay maintenance who claims that he wanted to be a SAHF but he sacrificed his time with his kids to work and support the family because that's what his wife wanted.

I think that many SAHM feel they have to justify to themselves and the world their choice, one they wanted to make and suited them at the time. I think they should own that choice, and accept the benefits as well as the risks that come with that choice.

I struggle with the fact that people don’t understand that different arrangements work for different families. Personally I would resent being at home doing 100% of the childcare, cleaning, washing and general picking up after everyone as much as DH would resent being the sole earner. So 50/50 works for us. We actually earn within a few pounds of each other, both have quite a bit of flexibility in our roles - so we’ve never missed a sports day/ assembly etc and we arranged our working day to cover drop offs and pick ups between us when dc were younger. We also split all the housework/childcare 50/50 between us. I can’t imagine anything worse than marrying a rich workaholic. DH prioritises his time with us as a family which is more important to me than how much money he brings in. That doesn’t make me morally superior and it doesn’t mean everyone should do or be the same but it works for us. If we won the lottery I’d love to give up work, but only if we both could and have equal free time. Different people have different personalities. So ascribing your view of the world on everyone, e,g all wohm are jealous of sahms is just wrong. I have friends who do have chosen different lifestyles and we talk openly about the pros and cons of each.

Well, many men are like this and when you are married to one, there’s not a lot you can do about it.

My point wasn't that these men don't exist though. My point was these women also exist but these traits aren't seen so positively in working mothers or even working women who aren't mothers.

This kind of debate literally only happens on MN. In real life, nobody gives these things a second thought

That might be the case now but I was definitely judged for working when ds was small (I worked 4 days a week and then full time for a few years and then went part-time when he was about 9). You were only allowed to work full time at ds' school if you were divorced or widowed. Otherwise the father should be providing and you should only be working for pin money, if at all.

There are a lot more nurseries in my town now, so I hope that attitude has changed.

I work contract as it allows me to make some requests about my hours that I am struggling to find in a permanent role. It means I work on and off when I get a contract.

Lots of the jobs I have worked for women who don’t understand why I don’t take the full time hours version of the job. Every single one has had grandparents looking after their children. A HR Director told me that her parents were basically raising her kids so she didn’t have to, they did all her housework and shopping as well.
What kind of support network you have makes all the difference.
There’s a huge difference depending where you live in what childcare is available, what school wrap round care, what summer clubs, how long it takes to get to work, what jobs are actually available and how flexible they might be.
There are too many variables for other people to comment on whether people should work or not.

I’ve worked in schools so I can have the holidays off. The problem is these jobs have zero flexibility and expect you to work extremely long hours which I haven’t found sustainable. It’s hard finding something that fits with our lives.

@vivainsomnia

It has absolutely no impact on your life if that’s what a SAHM feels she has done…so why do you feel the need to query/judge/belittle her because that’s how she feels? I don't feel any need, I come on AIBU to do what everyone does here, express their opinion. Be reassured that I don't go around my road, working out who is a SAHM and not, asking them about their career and telling them that of course they didn't give up theirs for their OH. I post here based on what i read here.

In any case, if your childcare costs would have been 3K, we are talking about kids still in nursery. That's not who my comments are directed to if the intention is to go back to work once they start school and said career can be resumed when childcare costs are more reasonable.

I'm talking about mums who are getting divorced, after 10-20 years of being a SAHM who claim that their OH could only earn what they are thanks to them sacrificing their career all those years ago. These are the ones I think expect sympathy for what they have supposedly loss purely for the love of their partner, who I don't believe are honest about their situations and choices, at least not all considering how often this comes up.

I doubt any SAHM who knows you would expect your sympathy on any issue they have. Do you actually know any SAHM who beg for your sympathy? Because if you are referring to SAHMs on the relationships board - top tip - they are easily avoided. Otherwise - what's it to you, why are you so invested in this issue?

@igelkott2021

This kind of debate literally only happens on MN. In real life, nobody gives these things a second thought

That might be the case now but I was definitely judged for working when ds was small (I worked 4 days a week and then full time for a few years and then went part-time when he was about 9). You were only allowed to work full time at ds' school if you were divorced or widowed. Otherwise the father should be providing and you should only be working for pin money, if at all.

There are a lot more nurseries in my town now, so I hope that attitude has changed.

That is mind-blowing - when was that? Was it in the UK?

when people tell me childcare is a joint expense they miss the point that the household income is pooled, so cancelling out an entire wage impacts the household jointly

Each family is different and as an absolute deyed-in-the-wool ancient feminist my fervent hope is that women (specifically mothers in this thread) are choosing what is best for them in terms of what they do next.

We've always been a "pooled income/assets" family, even in the long no-kids (I wanted none, he wanted 2) phase. So when we looked at our curcs when DC1 was on the way, it made sense to us - not least because I was the higher earner by far - for me to spend minimum time as the SAHP.
In the end fate intervened and instead of 6 months and then back to work, I had 3 years which I didn't enjoy (not least because of money worries) before joyfully handing ibmver the DCs and getting back to work. And that was horrible at times because it was incredibly stressful, long hours and I was the breadwinner so I had to suck it up.

So I think people should make informed choices. As parents sometimes we have to suck it up (whatever it is) for the sake of the family.

It isn't a competition. You want to do the 50s wife/mother thing? Have at it. Don't whine if you later realise you should have formalisés pension arrangements. (but please: formalisé your financial arrangements for tge long as well as the short term). Work part-time? Fab. Do it. Compress hours? Have a nanny & cleaner? Do it. But make sure there's an ongoing decision at every stage about how it should be working.

I asked student DC if they thought I was a worse mum because I worked. The answer "you did what you thought was best for us all". That's how we all need to look at what we do. Do the best for our circumstances.

“I asked student DC if they thought I was a worse mum because I worked. The answer "you did what you thought was best for us all". That's how we all need to look at what we do. Do the best for our circumstances.”

Yes exactly. If only more of MN could see it this way!

To be fair I live in "tiny village Germany" and during Kindergarten/primary school I was the only ft working mum in the class. Even into secondary ft WOHM were rare. I was also heavily involved in the PTA etc because I didn't have the familiarity with the German school system so it was a good way of staying in touch. So all the DCs friends has SAHMs and they were often jealous of that. As adults they havrcreassured me that it's all fine. Which comes as a relief tbh because i' ve often been plagued with mum guilt.

So in the grand scheme?it probably doesn't really matter which path you pick. And we should be supporting other women - goodness knows we have enough other crap to contend with.

(can anyone link me to the WASPI thread?)

I've never seen opinions on MN like the OP describes. I've been here for 7 years.

I wonder if cave men and women ever had these arguments?

My Mum hated parenting (Granny was the same, she ran a business and left it the the older kids) - work gave my Mum a joy we never could, she was human when she was working, everyone talked about how amazing she was at work. She took all her holidays during term time. Dad took us away on frequent day trips and holidays to give her even more space from us. She didn't want to spend time with us but she was enormously jealous of our affection for my Dad - who showed us a kindness my Mum could never manage.

@OnlyFoolsnMothers

No issue with whether a woman works or doesn’t but two things that piss me off:

1- “my partner works because he earns more”....always men who earn more

2- childcare will take all my wage- nope it’s a joint expense

Just say, I want to be a SAHM, that’s the truth and that’s ok.

Often it does take the equivalent of one salary. So what's the bloody point in working. All it does is complicate home life somewhat. A complete waste of time and resources.

Who cares what people earn, take that massive jacket spud potato off your shoulder, you might be able to stand upright.

It does happen in RL though - the viewing SAHM as lesser people (and less interesting) because they were unable, or not desirous, to have a family AND a successful career. It absolutely happens. Particularly in a group of school-mum friends/acquaintances, most of whom do work.

On MN and SM in general, it’s usually the most vociferous who like to argue, belittle, generalise, and theorise, on both sides. The over-riding viewpoint here seems to also be that SAHM are lesser women.

It’s no-one’s right to judge or second-guess anyone’s situation or life choices. They are usually made within a complex and changing set of circumstances, and we are all different in these, as well as what we value and what we find most rewarding, both as individuals and within our relationships, female or male.

The proportion of actual 'gold-diggers’, and ‘cocklodgers’, within the population I would not say are representative of the majority. Most people are just trying to make the best life for themselves and their families that they can, with all the increasing and changing pressures life brings.

I wish this thread, and all the others, would die a death.

@pinkfanman it's fairly common. Though I have never been refused a job on the basis a man should have been supporting me.

When I went back to work after having ds (8 years ago) some of the older women who had been sahp, whole their kids were young were vile.

And the mention of me just working for pin money.

Its continued through my career. Though not as bad as when I first went back.

But even now people can't reconcile the fact that I have a senior job, have kids (and was a single parent at one point) and I under 40. Though, I admit, it's even worse when they also know I don't have a degree.

In my current job, when I joined and would chat to people, people becomes convinced the owner must have been a family friend or known me before. Lots refused to accept I had been head hunted into the role. It must have been a favour.

So I have been judged as not only a bad parent but also been judged on wether I am suitable for a role by people based on the fact that I am a parent. As though you can't be a mother, to children who aren't adults, and very good at your job.

This is why I don't believe generally, people hate sahms. I don't believe people generally hate wohm either. There's just some dicks who really like to make people feel shit about whatever situation they have going on.

I doubt any SAHM who knows you would expect your sympathy on any issue they have. Do you actually know any SAHM who beg for your sympathy? Because if you are referring to SAHMs on the relationships board - top tip - they are easily avoided. Otherwise - what's it to you, why are you so invested in this issue?*
You are making it a lot more than what it is. I'm only posting my views here, I forget all about it the moment I'm off MN!

It's not eating me inside, or makes me uncondescent wit rage! I don't need to avoid threads where this might come off, I just think 'here we go, another poor one who has given up her supposedly high paid career against her wishes and who is now bitter that she will have to find a job and support herself after the divorce'.

I wish more SAHM read these posts, especially those who genuinely are on a good income/path before falling pregnant, and are thinking of giving it up for good to be a long term SAHM because doing so does come with benefits but risks too which I think I often put at the back of the mind.