To wonder why MN is so unpleasant about SAHMs?

[crinklyfoil]

While I know there are cases when women aren’t married and don’t own property and are in a vulnerable position, I’m not talking about posters who are concerned about women.

I’m talking about posters who believe that SAHMs have no say in finances, should ‘get a job’ and are somehow lazy.

A FT childcare place costs around £800 a month. If you have more than one child, realistically for many women, ‘getting a job’ will mean working at a loss. Not to mention problems with shift work at the lower paid end of the spectrum (retail work and care work.)

Is it really so awful that having a SAHM might just work really well for some families? That some women might thoroughly enjoy it and that it’s part of a mutually beneficial relationship in the context of the whole family?

Or should everyone just get a job, regardless of how miserable and poor it makes the whole family?!

The main issue, from an inequality perspective, is the imbalances in society a SAHM perpetuates i.e. men earn the money and work, women's role is to manage the house and bring up the children. Not, for example, Mum and Dad both going part time and sharing the responsibilities of bringing in a wage AND looking after the DC and the home. SAHDs are few and far between. Dads who work part time are few and far between. Men's wages continue to increase throughout their 30s and 40s - women's stagnate or go backwards. And the next generation then just learn the same old inequalities and gender stereotypes. Far more needs to be done by Govt to make childcare more affordable but there also needs to be shift in expectations within families up and down the country.

@Ideasplease322

I suppose a good question for stay at home mums is how do they raise children not to believe a woman’s role is automatically in the home.

How do they demonstrate to the girls that they should be striving for a career, to fulfill their full potential?

And how do they drum into the boys that females were put on their earth to make their life’s easier?

If children grow up seeing daddy works and mummy does the housework, how do you push the boundaries and show them yes this works for us now, but women can be the highest earner, men can stay at home and care for kids, or both can work.

I just think we are continually reinforcing the stereotypes for our children. That’s why some men struggle to have a female boss. That’s why some men assume females isn’t he work place will look after them and sort everything out for them. That’s why some men will into ask the ‘girls’ in the office to arrange the meeting or take the notes.

Sexism isn’t to e fault of SAHMs, but I think they need to be aware of the roles they are modelling and ensure their children have a more balanced view.

I had a stay at home father, my DH works and I stay home.

Also 'potential' is not reached through having a career lol. I constantly grow and improve, theres no lack of reach in potental.

Im highly educated and have had many amazing life experiances + my children have changed and enriched my life and developement beyond what I ever could have thought, all of which would have been completely hampered by wasting time having a 9 to 5 job and chasing promotions.

I hope my children grow up to know a 'career' isnt what defines them.

@Ideasplease322

I suppose a good question for stay at home mums is how do they raise children not to believe a woman’s role is automatically in the home.

How do they demonstrate to the girls that they should be striving for a career, to fulfill their full potential?

And how do they drum into the boys that females were put on their earth to make their life’s easier?

If children grow up seeing daddy works and mummy does the housework, how do you push the boundaries and show them yes this works for us now, but women can be the highest earner, men can stay at home and care for kids, or both can work.

I just think we are continually reinforcing the stereotypes for our children. That’s why some men struggle to have a female boss. That’s why some men assume females isn’t he work place will look after them and sort everything out for them. That’s why some men will into ask the ‘girls’ in the office to arrange the meeting or take the notes.

Sexism isn’t to e fault of SAHMs, but I think they need to be aware of the roles they are modelling and ensure their children have a more balanced view.

I would think one way, would be as I do in the reverse.

Both my children are aware of the benefits to us, of me working. Especially, as they are older and I am the only parent, now, present.

But they also know their uncle is a sahd whose wife works. They know my mum was a sahm, because it was expected but also she really wanted that and never worked full time after having kids.

I have brought them up know all choices are valid and there isn't one way to run a family.

I have made them aware of the pitfalls, of giving up work (I have a boy and girl), especially without being married. But also made clear, if you do it with your eyes wide open and it's what you want.

That's a perfectly valid choice. I have also made them both aware that if your partner gives up work and you divorce. The partner is (rightly) likely to get more of the assets in the divorce and more time with the kids. So both positions need careful consideration.

I would never have had kids with someone who wanted to be a sahp. Beavsue I have never been prepared to be the only wage earner. I wanted it shared. Which I got until exh had a breakdown and disappeared down the conspiracy rabbit hole after 15 years of marriage.

My dd is 17, she is aware that being a working parent isn't the only valid choice I my eyes. She knows different things suit different people. Ds hates sexist behaviour at 10 and does as many chores as dd did at that age. He sees his retired grandad do as much round the house as his retired nana.

Its entirely possible to bring children up in one situation but have them understand, that's not the only option.

But that's just my rambling on it.

@StepAwayFromGoogling

The main issue, from an inequality perspective, is the imbalances in society a SAHM perpetuates i.e. men earn the money and work, women's role is to manage the house and bring up the children. Not, for example, Mum and Dad both going part time and sharing the responsibilities of bringing in a wage AND looking after the DC and the home. SAHDs are few and far between. Dads who work part time are few and far between. Men's wages continue to increase throughout their 30s and 40s - women's stagnate or go backwards. And the next generation then just learn the same old inequalities and gender stereotypes. Far more needs to be done by Govt to make childcare more affordable but there also needs to be shift in expectations within families up and down the country.

I think there's some truth to this. However I was a sahp for 4 years and I wouldn't be willing to give up that time I had at home with my kids for the society changes we need. Happy to admit that.

@Flossing. Good point about why comment if I don’t care. Thinking about it, it’s because I find it so “first world problem”, whiny and woe is me. Constantly looking for validation from strangers for their choices to SAH. If they were comfortable with their choice then they wouldn’t need to. Grown ups should be able to make conscious, thoughtful choices about their own life, kids, finances without seeking approval from unknowns. Saying a that, over half the threads on mumsnet are from women getting that kind of validation so perhaps it’s par for the course here.

I have to admit I am slightly envious of some of the SAHM I know. they have NT teenagers at secondary school and have a cleaner/someone to do ironing, - their life seems quite enjoyable - hobbies, sports, lunches out, meeting friends, visiting art galleries or going to shows etc . I wouldnt want to do that every day, and I do (mostly) enjoy my job but I'm a bit envious of the extra free time they have to do enjoyable things! I would also feel bad if my husband was working long hours and I spent most of the day doing fun stuff for my own enjoyment (and he would feel resentful) but presumably the arrangement works well for both parties and is like that by mutual agreement.

Some women are vile about SAHMs on here. It's obviously jealousy. Extreme jealousy.

Because THEY have to go to out to work because their partner doesn't earn enough, when SAHMs get to stay at home with their children, because they were smart enough to pick a man who is a high earner.

And that's just as vile @DanniDuck

I don't see how being vile about one group of people is any better than them being vile.

Working mums will make excuses about how THEY wouldn't wanna be kept by a man and all that shit. But the fact is, they'd give their right arm, to have a man who is a high earner, so they are be able to stay at home with their children. You can tell by the bitterness and vitriol in their bile filled posts.

As is that. Its also simply not true.

Babies and children need to be looked after, it's a fact.

Reading threads like this from time to time I sometimes think there is a view that:

If you look after someone else's children (as in you're a childminder or nursery worker) that's GOOD because it's your job and you're being paid for what you do.

But if those same children are looked after by their own mother / father that's BAD because the parent should be out earning.

Looking after children is hard work. We should value SAHP as much as we value those who offer childcare for others.

@StepAwayFromGoogling yet they're becoming more commonplace and you ignored my post where I said that was the case. It won't happen overnight, these things are gradual. Not forgetting that there are women who would not be up for the man staying at home too.

To be fair, if he paid me the salary of a nanny then I would be able to afford “my half” of the mortgage, clothes, etc. DH couldn’t though as it would wipe out a majority of his salary.

Again, you’re making assumptions that I haven’t contributed prior to being a SAHM either. How do you know that I didn’t pay 50% of the mortgage as a lump sum deposit, how do you know I don’t have a property that has a monthly rental income. You don’t. You make the assumption that everyone’s circumstances are similar to your own when they actually differ greatly.

For some families, it does make financial sense for one parent not to work. In a lot of cases, it makes sense for that one person to be the lowest earner. In a lot of cases, the lowest earner is the mother.

If the whole family is happy with this then why judge them for it when it doesn’t affect you in any way. Calling a SAHM a leech is awful…DH and I are a team, we don’t leech off each other in any way. To think that everything in a marriage should be separate isn’t a view I’m familiar with. It makes it sound as though we should act a housemates with food in the fridge labelled, etc

Oh dear danniduk. Do you have daughters?

Do you honestly believe no woman wants a career? Every woman’s goal is to bag a man who is high earning and then stay at home.

Yes of course for some women (and men) this would be amazing. But some women want to excel on their careers, manage teams, lead companies, inspire student, heal patients.

I am sorry your world is so small that you can’t understand a lot of people are different to you. And that’s okay.

@LittlePearl I've had lots of comments about how nursery will aid my little ones development (from one onwards). I don't know whether this is said in seriousness or because people are a bit defensive because they've had to send their own from an early age. Each to their own, but please don't try to talk me that I need to send mine to nursery for development and I won't tell you that you need to keep yours at home. 🤷‍♀️
At 3 years my little one was more than ready for nursery and he's getting enough social development ready for school.

I quite like posts like @DanniDuck’s. At least she’s being honest with what she wants. She wants to be in her words “kept” by her husband. She seems to have achieved her goal for now and it’s great that she’s happy with that. Her total lack of understanding that other women do not want that says a lot about her.

I agree that it's also a role model issue. I didn't want my DD growing up thinking it was the man's job to earn the money and the woman's to look after the home.

There are evidently a lot of very strong feelings on MN about the very concept of SAHMs.

Just look at this thread - only started this morning and almost 300 responses already and still coming thick and fast. Anything with SAHM in the title always provokes strong reaction. You have to wonder why.

Just look at the other thread about the DH paying for his sister’s IVF. The whole thread has been derailed because the woman is a SAHM! People can’t get over themselves about what her husband earns. It’s absolutely mental and says it all.

I think a lot of women are struggling to balance work and home life. A lot of women simply don’t have husband’s who would financially support them, or even have joint finances. Women always feel more guilty than men - they tend to take in the emotional load of kids whether working or not. So the notion of SAHMs strikes at the core of many women’s insecurity. This is why so many women who have no experience of being a SAHM and never will be feel the need to weigh in on these threads. Often is presented as faux concern about “financial independence” etc. Anything to make themselves feel better about themselves, really. You can always tell the insecure ones because they will be the ones to use not-so-subtle phrases such as “leeching off a man.” The bitterness is palpable with these posters. Of course, they will deny it to the hilt, but happy people simply have no need to make snarky comments like that. They have to ask why they even felt compelled to come in the thread at all - yet hundreds upon hundreds do.

*Some women are vile about SAHMs on here. It's obviously jealousy. Extreme jealousy.

Because THEY have to go to out to work because their partner doesn't earn enough, when SAHMs get to stay at home with their children, because they were smart enough to pick a man who is a high earner.*

Sounds a lot like escort with extras they way you describe it....🤷🏻

@DanniDuck I have no animosity towards SAHMs at all but if you by genuinely think every working mother is deeply envious of SAHMs and desperate to be at home you are very much mistaken. Some people will not want to be at work but for the majority it’s a choice and just as fulfilling as child rearing (you get to do both at once!).

I don't judge stay at home mums, I understand why people would want to do that, but my personal experience of knowing sahm"s has been negative therefore that has swayed me towards me thinking it's not for me.

My mum was a stay at home mum, very intelligent lady with 2 degrees, after many years off she couldnt get more than a basic admin job, she caught up with one of her graduate friends and shes very successful now and my mum often ponders the what could have been.

A woman I know, not worked a day in her life, (shes 52 now) treated well financially but desperately bored of her marriage, doesn't really speak to her husband, but has not known anything different to being financially looked after and being the sahm/housewife (now looking after grandkids) so is essentially stuck.

3rd lady I know, also never worked. Now her kids are older, seems to be desperately clinging to trying to get an identity other than 'mum'. One month it was mlm boss babe stuff, next it was running fb neighbourhood watch which she ended up getting banned from from due to stirring up trouble, now shes on a big anti fax hype....everything she does just paints a picture of a bored unfulfilled lady.

I know these arent representative of everyone.

Saying that I do think there is a massive difference in staying home the very early years to being a stay at home mum to school kids.

It’s scewed on mumsnet because happy people don’t post. It’s usually the scenario of I’m a sahm and he’s being financially abusive or he has left me and I’m up shit creek. A bad situation compounded by fact woman isn’t working limiting her options. Often not married and ignorant of implications until they’ve split.
I also think in your 20s and 30s bogged down by babies it’s hard to see wood for trees and things like career progression, difficulty of getting back into your profession after a gap and pension seem way down the list. I’m older and have seen issues people who did give up have faced. Pointing that out isn’t a criticism.
No one knows anyone’s circumstances certainly on mumsnet lots seem to have income from property or inheritance so are actually a landlord not sahm.

@Viviennemary
My mum was a SAHM and I never once thought earning was the mans role.

She did things like put it in role play, etc from a young age. Made sure we read books about different family dynamics.

I wouldn’t lose sleep over it. You could say it about any family dynamic…I’m worried that my daughter will think she has to marry a man because I am when she could in fact marry a woman. You could go on forever…children will become adults and make their own decisions. Just like we all have.

P.S. so what if she does want to be a SAHM…🤷🏻‍♀️

Being a SAHP is nothing like as demanding as being a working parent

That’s not true for our family and no doubt many others.. it depends on your personality.

Looking after children is hard. Especially when they have as much energy as our DC😬

[quote Snookie00]@Flossing. Good point about why comment if I don’t care. Thinking about it, it’s because I find it so “first world problem”, whiny and woe is me. Constantly looking for validation from strangers for their choices to SAH. If they were comfortable with their choice then they wouldn’t need to. Grown ups should be able to make conscious, thoughtful choices about their own life, kids, finances without seeking approval from unknowns. Saying a that, over half the threads on mumsnet are from women getting that kind of validation so perhaps it’s par for the course here.[/quote]
I don't think people are looking for validation of their choices. I think threads like these are just push back because there are rude comments about sahp on this site.

Your comments are basically saying put up and shut up.

@Opalfeet - my post wasn't aimed at you. Just a general observation that I wish that as a society we'd be a bit further along than we are. There is still an assumption that the SAHP or part time working parent is Mum, not Dad. That's based on a lot of factors but it's still depressing.