Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

I think you can be a good person and have paid for sex in the past. I don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that young men, tanked up, on stag night, peer pressure etc. etc. leads to making decisions that they later realise were bad ones.

I've been to strip clubs and watched porn when I was in my early 20s. The women in the clubs do an amazing job of making you feel special and like they're having loads of fun with you. Back then it felt sort of sexy and fun and not a big deal. I've learned so much more now and thought and read about it a lot, and I wouldn't do either of those things again as I now feel it's wrong. But we don't just spring into adulthood with perfectly matured moral compasses.

The men who do it as a lifelong hobby, then sit there on their computers writing reviews of the women afterwards are absolutely vile.

@Lave 'I had field reports on adultwork though and they made for ridiculous reading, like badly written erotic novels. Just thinking about it is enough to make me cringe.'

I recall a man contacting me via my website with details of his AW profile telling me to check out his feedback. A quick look revealed that he love love loved to write field reports, the more lurid and vulgar the better. I declined to see him, not least because he seemed to think his feedback was more a reason for him not to submit to my screening process.

I've seen reviews on there where they said the woman was clearly being forced to do it. From tears to a tiny note saying help to seeing that the woman must be in pain due to the obvious signs on her body.

None said they left. None said they reported it. All fucked them anyway. And then wrote a poor review.

I think the majority of men who do are lowlifes, who treat sex as an entitlement and women as objects.

There are however some men for whom a normal sexual relationship is difficult if not impossible. One I know of admitted to feeling very sexually inadequate and did not believe he could ever have a normal relationship because he had a very low sex drive. He saw prostitutes because that was the only way he felt able to experience any sort of intimacy. Similarly, disabled people have done so too, again feeling it’s their only opportunity. It might be that they could have found someone willing but in the case of the former he was in his 40s and all his attempts at relationships had failed for that reason.

I recall a man contacting me via my website with details of his AW profile telling me to check out his feedback. A quick look revealed that he love love loved to write field reports, the more lurid and vulgar the better. I declined to see him, not least because he seemed to think his feedback was more a reason for him not to submit to my screening process.

Ah yes I've come across a fair few like that,
they're ever so proud of their feedback aren't they. I hated the field reports, far too much information and made me feel violated all over again.

I've seen reviews on there where they said the woman was clearly being forced to do it. From tears to a tiny note saying help to seeing that the woman must be in pain due to the obvious signs on her body. None said they left. None said they reported it. All fucked them anyway. And then wrote a poor review.

This makes me want to cry. Fucking bastards.

I think this is too simplistic, there will be bad men who pay for sex but there will also be perhaps men with social difficulties, issues with their looks or perhaps disabilities that affect their ability to meet a woman or their perceived belief in their ability to meet a woman.

There is also a large difference in types of women who offer sex for women and their circumstances. There will be sex trafficked abused women, women with drug problems etc on one end of the spectrum and then high class escorts who are raking it in (arguably exploiting the men!?) and maybe even some who do enjoy it / the money and lifestyle it affords.

I’m not sure I’d use the words good or bad. I know my values would never align with some who is willing to pay for sex.

Lave - I hope you’re OK and I’m sorry you’re having to come to terms with something so traumatic.

I think it’s complex. If I found out DH had ever used a sex worker, I’d be pretty devastated. He wouldn’t be the man I thought he was.

But. I imagine there are some men who aren’t fundamentally bad who do use them. Perhaps long term single, disabled, lonely. They can’t buy companionship, but they can buy something else.

Do I think it’s a right or good choice? No. Do I think lonely or disabled women might make a similar choice? Unlikely.

I do think the vast majority of us dehumanise some cohorts of people to a greater or lesser degree at set points in time. I’ve shopped at Primark. Many people do. That takes a degree of cognitive dissonance - we all know the people who make the clothes aren’t getting adequately remunerated for it, aren’t doing the job out of choice, but necessity.

This is just one example, and of course there are degrees of dehumanising - it’s ostensibly ‘easier’ to dehumanise a person on the other side of the world whom you’ll never meet, as opposed to one you’re planning to have sex with.

I strongly suspect most men who use sex workers are lacking something in the empathy department and, generally speaking, aren’t the sort of people you want in your life m. But I don’t think it’s flat out black and white.

I don't agree sorry.

Loads of people live without sex and don't pay for it.

Loads of people want sex but don't pay for it.

The idea that certain types of men paying for sex is fine is very iffy.

Your friend did not believe he could have a relationship. He didn't know that did he.

People with disabilities can and do date and go out with people etc.

Sex is not a right. It can be a strong want but it's not a need.

It's still a man paying s woman for sexual access to her body. It's still s woman who could be in any sort of situation.

I know a man who years ago got pissed and decided to tell me that he paid for sex because he had a skin condition that meant he was too embarrassed to take clothes off in front of a woman he was seeing. That they wouldn't want him.

He wanted reassuring that this made it ok. He did not get it. I mean he knows me what did he think I would say!

Blokes seem to come to me to confess and seek essentially forgiveness quite a lot. No idea why.

Anyway. He's been married for years and has kids.

So there you go.

Loads of men feel that it's fine to pay for sex because men have needs. In the end.

The way the focus is often on men who might not otherwise get to fuck women, and that would be awful for them. Poor them. Is to try and elicit sympathy. It seems to work quite a lot.

Abused or coerced women aren’t ‘feeble’ raindropsonrosie.

FFS. Disgusting.

No ! It's total disregard and disrespect for the woman's feelings . Men that do it are bad people, especially the married ones !

It's not always just about sex though, NiceGerbil. Lonely people will sometimes do it for company. I know that sounds pathetic but it is a fact that there are lonely people in the world and spending time with someone pleasant and kindly is an attractive prospect.

If they are just lonely, I'm sure they don't need to hide the sausage then do they? Just chat.

@Maggiesfarm

It's not always just about sex though, NiceGerbil. Lonely people will sometimes do it for company. I know that sounds pathetic but it is a fact that there are lonely people in the world and spending time with someone pleasant and kindly is an attractive prospect.

I certainly had clients tell me they loved the company and I've no doubt that was a part of it. But they still got their rocks off in the end

Where is the market for chatting with a nice person? With no sex included?

Why does it need to be a person of the sex you fancy rather than any person?

Why not join a club or something?

Plenty of nice people about who will chat in a kind way for free. My FIL for example.

So many ??? on that comment!

@NiceGerbil

I've read a few attitudes of men who pay for sex pieces/ studies etc. And of course puntern*t is eye opening.

The theme was the majority of men had no empathy for the woman. One I remember in a study said he didn't want them to enjoy it because if she does then he's not getting what he paid for. The point for him was she didn't want it or enjoy it. In general i think a fair few men in general life enjoy unsettling, scaring, upsetting, exerting dominance over, harming women and girls. I mean that's what so many 'trivial' but very common sex offences are about. And most women know from experience that a large minority of men have that attitude.

Naturally the idea of paying a woman for sex would appeal to a fair number of men like that.

Completely agree with this. I don’t fall for the ‘only sad, lonely men pay for sex’ line. Lots of men do it because they like being in control and they can get away with treating women in ways they wouldn’t risk trying in their own relationships.

@Maggiesfarm

It's not always just about sex though, NiceGerbil. Lonely people will sometimes do it for company. I know that sounds pathetic but it is a fact that there are lonely people in the world and spending time with someone pleasant and kindly is an attractive prospect.

Funny they usually want the person who makes them feel less lonely to be female, usually younger than them and usually attractive to them...

Almost as if it's more about sex than loneliness...

If you want a nice chat with kindly ladies, go to a coffee morning at your local church.

I think a fair number of men view sex as being transactional. They view it as something they're entitled to not only when they pay for it but also from their female partners as a service provided to them in exchange for being in the relationship (or even just from a casual date). So it doesn't matter whether the woman (whether prostitute, wife, partner, date) enjoys it. While this is most marked in relation to paying for sex due to the economic power imbalance and the vulnerability of many sex workers, these issues also play out in many supposedly "normal" relationships where actually the man doesn't care about the woman enjoying it and just wants his demands met.

In answer to your question, though, yes I would view them as "bad" people but I think the attitudes and feelings of entitlement which lead them to exploit women like this are endemic in our society.

The transactional thing is related by the incredibly damaging views around

Women are the gatekeepers of sex
Women use sex against men. Giving/ withholding for a variety of reasons. Not related to their own sexual desire.

That sort of thing.

Women have it. Men want it. Women withhold it for power over men. It's about men finding ways to get women to hand it over.

@NiceGerbil. I agree entirely.

I also think that the reason many women don't enjoy sex (and so are less willing to have it, hence all the "gatekeeper" and "control" nonsense) is because a lot of men are quite frankly shit at ensuring that their partner gets as much out of it as they do. Quite often because they don't actually care.

YY and the massive judgements on women around sex.

The age old virgin/ whore thing.

Sorry to use that word on this thread but it's a well known saying that sums it up

There’s some disgusting attitudes towards people with disabilities on this thread. How they are all sad losers who can never have a relationship so are therefore justified in abusing women instead .

If you some of you genuinely think that, then you need to take a long hard look at yourself. But I assume it’s just another tactic of the
“women love it really and they make good money / women do it too / you lot hate prostitutes “ brigade who always pop up on these threads.

Any minute now we will get “ you are all just insecure because your husband shags someone who is younger and prettier than you “ . And the “ well it’s your fault as you won’t do what he wants in bed” .

The rape apologists are nothing if not predictable.

A fundamental problem is that sex is so very different for women and for men.

For men - unless they’re in a committed relationship and trying to conceive - it’s a recreational activity. Nothing more, nothing less.

For women, it’s a highly risky activity - it can hurt, be damaging and of course comes with the risk of pregnancy, which has life-changing repercussions. Women can also have it forced upon them, whether they want it or not.

So yes, for the vast period of human existence, women have indeed been the gate-keepers of sex, because for a variety of valid reasons, they do not necessarily want it.

Many, many, many men simply do not get this. They don’t understand what sex means for most women.

Some do. Some men get it.

But the bottom line is - while it’s virtually a risk-free activity for men (we all know they can and do walk away, absolving themselves of any responsibility from the repercussions of sex), and an incredibly risky activity for women, it’s always going to be fraught.

This is moving away from the general premise of the conversation, but I don’t think this inherent difference is talked about enough, or well understood by men at all.

Yes they are scum , sad and desperate .