Can you be a good person if you pay for sex? [Content warning: descriptions of sexual abuse]

[Lave]

Do you think there's a grey area or are all men who pay for sex abusive?

Totally agree with the first part of your post Donna!

On the second I totally get where you're coming from.

Yes confidence, sexual coercion is v common and not right just walk. When men do whatever it's 100% on them. And they do whatever it is to lots of others. It's not personal, it's nothing you did etc etc.

All good.

Getting angry is awesome. Notice. Feel pissed off. Care about the position of women and girls around the world. Feeling anger is the right emotion.

However in real life. I never understood why my friends would jolly along awful men who decided to join us in the pub. Why they minimised groping etc. That sort of thing.

Now I get it. If you decide it's not s big problem to have to chat nicely to s dickhead who feels entitled to just randomly sit with a load of women and expect them to be nice to him. If you brush off the stray hands etc as not a big deal then you don't have to face up to a massive uncomfortable reality.

I don't blame them for that. It's easier. Noticing the way men so often behave to women and girls... It's constant and awful and mostly ignored.

I was always pretty fiesty and also noticed from when I was a young girl all this shit.

I didn't play nice. I didn't play the game. I was not prepared to carefully and gently get rid of random blokes demanding my time. Etc etc

Anyway it comes with risk.

I have been shouted at, threatened, one drunk man wanted to 'take it outside' ie fight.

I wasn't rude. All I said was things like. No thank you. Sorry we're in the middle of a conversation.

Eg
Can I buy you a drink (at the bar)
No thank you I'm fine
Well you haven't got a drink let me buy you one
No really I'm fine
Why not? What's the problem? It's only a drink!!!
No really but thanks
Why not FFS? I'm not going to hassle you! It's just a fucking drink!
Really no
What's your problem you got a problem with me? Fucking bitch. Who the fuck do you think you are.. etc

Often really aggressive in your face.

I've also had a pint tipped over my head, been followed by a shouting man if I left etc.

Because I said no.

So I totally understand why women and girls play nice because there ARE consequences quite often if you don't.

It's not our fault. It's the fault of the sort of men who feel entitled to do this stuff. And don't read body language. Ignore the obvious atmosphere that often falls when a happy group of women get s man or men like this decide to join in...

This is the fault of men. All the poor behaviour. It's on them.

Yes I agree society supports it so society needs to change.

Individual girls/ women can't by themselves and there are risks.

Agree with theory v reality.

In theory I have no issues with porn prostitution etc. If things were such that everyone was financially secure and men and women were truly equal.

In reality it's so far from that, that's it's a hard no for me.

Paying for sex is never a good act, no. And repeatedly doing bad things doesn't leave you untouched as a person.

I've been very interested in the 'lots of women pay for sex too' posts on here and I've done a bit of searching; I'd say it's somewhere between absolute bollocks and purposeful lying.

Katie Price talked about something shocking she might do in the future in order to get a headline. Lily Allen apparently paid for sex once - again possibly talked about to get headlines. Again and again when you dig into the article it will be smoke and mirrors with lots of claims about women paying for sex being 'on the rise'.

I read some of Caldwell 2018, a PhD thesis on female sex buyers in Aus. If you can fight your way through the blizzard of claims about 'female empowerment' and general libfem rubbish, you find reviews of surveys suggesting that 0.1-0.3% of women have paid for some kind of sexual activity - type unspecified. The figures o can find suggest 4% plus of men have paid for sex - type unspecified.

Logic tells me that women who are rich enough might do things traditionally associated with power and money held by men. I wonder how many do it more than once or what they feel about it. If a woman - any woman - wants sex, they can get it. Not necessarily good sex in a relationship with somebody nice and no risk of violence, disease, or pregnancy but sex, yes.

The idea that women do this and that too is put about usually by men or the providers of various services to make men feel better and to try to say HA! to women who say these things harm women.

But where are the stats? Who gathered them?

Are they about the umbrella of sex work-
Including paying for sex
But also
Visiting strip clubs/ t**Ty bars and that sort of thing
Doing back office jobs in any number of environments- any sort of office work from pr to manager to cleaning anywhere that has entertainment involving nudity?
Working for an online provider in any number of roles IE a tech company?
And the array of non contact sex related roles...
I mean it's a long list and the push to use the word sex work was clever and seems to have worked to

Support the sex work is work line
Which also sounds somehow more ok. Sex is nice right? Supposed to be. We're all supportive of sex being talked about more generally aren't we?! And work is good. You earn money. You are independent. Etc.

This approach is so successful that universities in freshers week have had sex work stands, being on only fans is seen as so ordinary that (seen on here) it gets suggested by men to women looking for a job (their friends FFS!) and having a 'sugardaddy' is in mainstream news outlets as an essentially harmless way for young women to easily make oodles of money out of silly old geezers...

Maybe more.

As a woman who has had a fairly standard life the suggestion that women are paying for sex all over the place is as likely as bears starting to build outhouses fitted with lavatories.

1. Generally women can get a shag pretty easily
2. The social and physical differences between men and women mean that meeting a random bloke / having him come to yours is risky. And this would be more random than a man you've actually met in the pub. Most women would not accept that risk
3. What women enjoy in bed is more variable than men. Directions would need to be constantly given is it worth the effort?
4. More women live with dependents/ have less freedom to get out and about
5. More women like to at least know s bit about someone before they shag them (safety and is he a complete twat)

Probably more.

I know that in Kenya there is a market for this.

Here? Nope.

Lesbians in general I think... I mean I've never met a lesbian who would... I mean why? Same as straight women. Why? We can wank. We can get sex pretty easily if we want it. We in general do not see sexual partners as essentially lesser or 2D cutouts.

Some women sell their bodies because they make a good amount of money and it’s their choice. Some men also sell their bodies and women pay for it. It doesn’t make you a bad person to be willing to pay for sex.

Stats please re women paying for sex v men.

Decent source. UK, whole of Europe or global stats will do.

Oh and don't forget the include the stats for men paying for sex with men. That's important.

Oh your dr mate loves it? That cancels out the 80% who have substance issues and are forced into it.

Permanent ive seen figures of up to 12% of men go to prostitutes, il try dig it out. Its hard data to gather though, and very location/cultural specific

@NiceGerbil

Oh and don't forget the include the stats for men paying for sex with men. That's important.

Now that you mention it, doesn't that kind of negate the whole 'men don't see women' bodies as human' theory. If men pay other men too, the idea of paying for sex can't be rooted in misogyny.

Perhaps it's just that men see sex for money as a fair transaction, much like all other transactions.

You'd need to go and find out the attitudes of men who buy sex from men and the circumstances of men who sell sex.

I seem to remember when that politician was in the press for drugs and paying for sex with men. One recording about a young man new to it, he said he was going to 'break him in'.

I dunno about you but that made my stomach turn at the time.

Interested that you seen to accept paying for sex is very much predominantly a male thing to do.

Of course it is. As you wrote, women can pretty much get it whenever they want. (Which would make women the gatekeepers of sex, though feminists claim that's a misogynistic view rather than a realistic one.)

To many men seeing women as gatekeepers of sex

Does not mean women deciding who they want to have sex with

It relates to the male approach that they need to get through the gate by almost, and sometimes any means possible.

It leads to
Behaviour from hassling to coercion to force
Anger sometimes leading to hatred/ aggression if they can't get many/ any women to have sex with them
The f
Aggrieved feelings when they do xyz and she still says no. Often financial things now I come to think of it. But I paid for dinner. She owes me.

So yes it's fair to say that backs up your idea that many men do see sex as transactional. Because they feel they have 'paid' for it and now she is not reciprocating.
The general gist seems to be that she is going this out of malice or a desire to manipulate or is a grifter. The idea that she might simply not want to is not one that I've seen.

Have s look at incel groups for more info. Very enlightening.

The f - don't know where that came from! Ignore it!

What I absolutely despise, is a woman being called terrible names and being treated as a lesser being on the basis that she has lots of men or is paid for sex.
Who is anyone to call someone a whore because they either have lots of different sexual partners or charge for sex?
Who is anyone to say women deserve to be treated badly because of it?
Or to be let down by the police when a crime has been committed against them, just because of their sexual activity!
A woman being made out to be a whore because she has had several different sexual partners prior to being raped.
A woman' being told that she can't possibly have been raped because she's a prostitute!
A woman's murder being treated almost with contempt by the police because ' she was a whore, what did she expect?'.
The above get me far more angry than a man paying for sex.
Finger pointing, name calling and judgement from their oh so perfect bloody perches!!
These women are human beings, irrespective of their sexual activities, human bloody beings!!

I've worked with sex workers and those who buy their services. The men fall into different categories. Some are predators who actively seek someone they can hurt and abuse knowing full well they're unlikely to be reported. Some just see it as a paid for service. Some are lonely individuals who can't see any other way of getting sex or don't want the associated social niceties or dating process of finding someone willing to do it for free. There's a whole range.
We live in a society that structurally supports this. I wouldn't necessarily assume the buyer is a bad person or inherently misogynistic. The key for me is how they respond when they are informed about the reality. Interestingly, there seems to be a class-based element to this based on my experience. Male users from poor socio-economic backgrounds seem to 'get it' (I.e. the pressures and desperation felt by many of the workers) better than the higher socio-economic groups who sadly seem to see poverty as an indication of not quite fully human as much (if not more so) than the sex worker's sex.
Some street sex workers can turn over a quite staggering wage. Unfortunately, by the time they've paid for the drugs/alcohol they need to get through the act, as well as subsidising their partner's habit or their pimp, they're usually still left in poverty.
My view is that ignorance is sometimes understandable. But if you still choose to see it the same way after having your eyes opened, that's what makes you a callous person.

I understand the posts above in relation to clearly paid prostitution. There is a greyer area I've encountered.

I'd worked for a tech company in the past that involved many business trips to Taiwan (usually Hsinchu science park and Taipei). Over the years I did observe that many/most of the single foreign male engineers did have relationships with local women (that could sometimes mean Taiwanese, very frequently Philippines, less Thai and fewer Vietnamese). White foreigner engineer + Asian girlfriend was very much the norm. My female colleagues would comment, and joke, about it.

Some of these people did get married, and were doubtless great relationships. I know several who moved later to EU and US.

But there were also many cases where it seemed like an exchange of some sorts. The women were mostly very pretty and mostly younger than the male. In a few cases the women would also be well educated and have admin roles, project management roles, marketing roles, etc.

Nothing wrong or illegal at all, in many cases probably great for the couples, but sometimes I did wonder.

OhGiveUp

Totally agree.

The huge global cost to women and girls of the way men categorise us as having worth or not, and how they measure that worth is appalling.

In some countries a female rape victim can be prosecuted for sex outside marriage/ adultery I mean shit like this is sickening.

@Resilience

I've worked with sex workers and those who buy their services. The men fall into different categories. Some are predators who actively seek someone they can hurt and abuse knowing full well they're unlikely to be reported. Some just see it as a paid for service. Some are lonely individuals who can't see any other way of getting sex or don't want the associated social niceties or dating process of finding someone willing to do it for free. There's a whole range. We live in a society that structurally supports this. I wouldn't necessarily assume the buyer is a bad person or inherently misogynistic. The key for me is how they respond when they are informed about the reality. Interestingly, there seems to be a class-based element to this based on my experience. Male users from poor socio-economic backgrounds seem to 'get it' (I.e. the pressures and desperation felt by many of the workers) better than the higher socio-economic groups who sadly seem to see poverty as an indication of not quite fully human as much (if not more so) than the sex worker's sex. Some street sex workers can turn over a quite staggering wage. Unfortunately, by the time they've paid for the drugs/alcohol they need to get through the act, as well as subsidising their partner's habit or their pimp, they're usually still left in poverty. My view is that ignorance is sometimes understandable. But if you still choose to see it the same way after having your eyes opened, that's what makes you a callous person.

I agree with this.

Ignorance is not the same as arrogance.

Younger prettier female in relationship with (somewhat) older wealthier man, is not just Western Engineer + Asian Partner (even though I do recognize the stereotype). It is and always has been common.

In many cases I'd think it must reflect the economic imbalance. As long as the woman and man in question are happy with it, then no problem.

When I was much younger my DSis was in Uni she had an older BF with a great job, lovely car, fantastic holidays. It suited them both, even though she liked him, it was never a long term option for my DSis anyway as she had other plans to move abroad.

@Resilience - your point about the sex workers earning a lot but ending up in poverty is very telling.
@NiceGerbil - earlier upthread, when you spoke of your experiences in a bar, that was a good point about the experience of women, having to manage male hostility in these situations.