Pandemic dad having eyes opened

[AwakeAwake]

Men get paternity leave for first 2 weeks or month if lucky.
Babies usually just sleep and feed that first week or two.
Therefore men are getting a false sense of what it is to parent small baby.

My husband has never spent much time with tiny child until now working from home and new arrival in the house.
Previous children he's just been off a week, held a sleepy newborn and back to work when the real excitement kicks off.

Aibu to think that pandemic parents are getting a taste finally of how bloody challenging a baby is?
No longer can they escape to work for 12hrs and come home asking what you did all day. No longer can they pretend they don't see how hard a toddler is running riot I'm the house.

The washing, cleaning, nappies, activities, screaming, tantrums etc. All laid bare at last.

My husband genuinely looked surprised that a toddler has tantrums as he didn't see it with first, potty training doesn't just magically occur, food splatters everywhere and must be cleaned up. These are all new to him.

Paternity leave should be month 2.

[quote karmakameleon]**@AlexaShutUp

If you’ve seen both sides of the fence, you’re in a position to see what’s easier/harder. Everyone has a different perspective but at least you have real experience to base it on. Very few men have spent any significant time at home with small children, and yet they feel qualified to claim that being the one who goes to work is harder or at least as difficult. Most women will have worked before they had children, so they are in a far better position to make the call. All OP is saying is that being at home has given her DH another perspective and yet so many people are so dismissive.

Also, very few men are the sole breadwinner. Statistically most have a partner who works (maybe part time) and also picks up the slack at home. Most know that if the worst happens, their partner can usually go back to working full time so that should be a weight of their minds.[/quote]
This sums my point up thanks.

I've got a pandemic proof job and so husband won't ever have to panic he's got to support us forever alone. I can sort of understand of you're the only one who can work or warn enough to pay current bills adequately but that isn't the case here.
He's just never really seen the newborn and toddler stages from almost goldfish bowl perspective and now he is. He might think I'm slacking and some posters alluded to me having a bizarre active toddler and weirdo boob obsessed newborn but I'm pretty sure that's normal. Chuck in school child and my Google calendar of reminders is brimming with fun activities.
Husband looks on some days in horror. Today I had ice creams melted, fridge raided, poops x5, a tantrum, a shared shower, sone newborn screaming, lunchtime fun, fancy dress, Barbie playtime, shoes on, shoes off, outfit changes, school, clean up Etc etc.
I'm supposed to be in there somewhere.
I'm coping, the children are fine, I'm not moaning or whining I'm just entertained that husband thought I'd be sitting serenely all day Mary poppins style, rather than vacuuming, litter tray, bathroom and kitchen cleaning fun all day.

I try to do any big jobs on the weekend when he's awake and can see what they entail, like poster up thread who said her husband cleaned the kids wardrobe and toys and room. That can take hours. Unless you see what is involved then you'd not think so.

[quote karmakameleon]**@AlexaShutUp

If you’ve seen both sides of the fence, you’re in a position to see what’s easier/harder. Everyone has a different perspective but at least you have real experience to base it on. Very few men have spent any significant time at home with small children, and yet they feel qualified to claim that being the one who goes to work is harder or at least as difficult. Most women will have worked before they had children, so they are in a far better position to make the call. All OP is saying is that being at home has given her DH another perspective and yet so many people are so dismissive.

Also, very few men are the sole breadwinner. Statistically most have a partner who works (maybe part time) and also picks up the slack at home. Most know that if the worst happens, their partner can usually go back to working full time so that should be a weight of their minds.[/quote]
I don't disagree that it's impossible to comment on what's harder if you don't have experience of both. Most men don't have experience of being at home with young dc 24/7, and therefore they aren't in a position to judge what they would find easier. However, I would venture to suggest that many women don't have experience of being the sole or main breadwinner either, which makes them equally unable to judge.

What I really struggle to understand is why women who are contributing well financially bother to put up with these men who apparently don't pull their weight with the childcare or housework. I get that it's more complicated if you can't support yourself financially, but if you earn enough to pay the bills, why would you put up with it? It's no kind of partnership if one person is doing all the work. Where is the mutual respect and support?

@AlexaShutUp

I’m not sure being the sole breadwinner is that stressful for most. Certainly, the men I work with in that position don’t seem that stressed. The working mums who are rushing to get everything done at work before the go home to a second shift seem far more stressed, and some of them are probably the higher income earner too.

If an individual finds the stress of being the main earner too much, maybe they should pick up more of the slack at home to free up their partner to return to the workplace. For some reason, very few do.

[quote karmakameleon]@AlexaShutUp

I’m not sure being the sole breadwinner is that stressful for most. Certainly, the men I work with in that position don’t seem that stressed. The working mums who are rushing to get everything done at work before the go home to a second shift seem far more stressed, and some of them are probably the higher income earner too.

If an individual finds the stress of being the main earner too much, maybe they should pick up more of the slack at home to free up their partner to return to the workplace. For some reason, very few do.[/quote]
I can only speak from experience and from the experience of those that I know. I have found it very stressful. In our case, it isn't a question of DH not being free to work. He is free and does work. However, there have been extended periods when he has been out of work (through no fault of his own) and now that he is self employed, his income has been hit really hard by the pandemic.

I actually know quite a lot of people who feel the pressure of being the sole or primary breadwinner, so I'm surprised that you think it's so rare, but I guess they may not share how they feel with their partners. For men, I guess a lot of people feel that it's just what is expected of them. Personally, I never told DH how much pressure I felt under because there was nothing he could do. I knew he was trying his best and he felt guilty enough already, so I didn't want to pile on the pressure when his mental health was already suffering. Doesn't mean that I didn't struggle though.

I should add, a lot of what I pick up is from conversations with people who I manage. Worries about job security, worries about progression, worries about salary. They might not express it externally but they definitely feel it.

I don’t think it’s rare, I just don’t think it’s as common as people make out. And it men do find it stressful, they should do something about it, like doing more at home and freeing their partners up to work. Or just don’t have kids because everyone knows they are expensive. Heaven forbid that a man take some personal responsibility.

@AlexaShutUp

I should add, a lot of what I pick up is from conversations with people who I manage. Worries about job security, worries about progression, worries about salary. They might not express it externally but they definitely feel it.

If it’s someone you manage, don’t you think this might be a play for more money. Statically men who have children earn more than men who don’t, and far more than women who do. Can you really not see a pattern here?

My husband never got up in the night with any of our 4 kids - never. I mentioned this to him the other day and I couldn’t believe what he said - “Yes that’s because you, as a woman, were genetically designed for broken sleep.” I’m not joking. This is what he actually thinks. Apparently, I had “the hormones and the adrenalin” for it all, you see. Whereas he did not.

The first time I left him with out first baby was when he was 7 months old. It was my neighbour’s birthday and she asked me in for a glass of champagne. Within ten minutes there was a knock at the door. “He’s rolled off the bed and landed on the wood floor. I didn’t see if he hit his head.” So just me going nextdoor resulted in a trip to A&E.

When DS2 came 2 years later, I was upstairs bf. DH decided to leave the front door open because the parquet had been oiled and there’s was a string smell. The next thing, a neighbour who lived about six houses down, was knocking at the door - “Is this your toddler?” He had gone out and walked along the street (London) on his own and DH hasn’t noticed because he was doing something with the WiFi.

As the kids have got older, DH has got much better. This is because he can “do things” with them now. He’s fine if he has a defined activity - eg. “I am taking the kids camping.” What he couldn’t do was the mundane “life” in between the defined activities. Also, he’s not good at being in the house all day, so couldn’t have coped with kids being ill, etc.

I might sound like I’m resentful here, but I’m not actually because, the thing is, he’s not lazy. His businesses and investments have paid for our homes and have put 4 DC through school. I’m totally aware that I have no idea about what that takes.

OP, I completely get what you’re saying - but it gets better! Men who have no idea with babies tend to get to become more involved as the kids get older (naturally, without you having to ask). Housework is another matter - which is why I have a cleaner. The rest I manage myself. If you asked him right now, he’s have no clue how often the cleaner comes or what she does.

I agree with you, OP. Our babies are 5 years apart. My husband had 2 weeks of paternity leave with our first but has worked from home since having our second baby during lockdown. His eyes have been well and truly opened! (Despite being a very hands on dad with our first in evenings and at weekends with our first).

If it’s someone you manage, don’t you think this might be a play for more money. Statically men who have children earn more than men who don’t, and far more than women who do. Can you really not see a pattern here?

Yes, of course it's a play for more money, or in some cases, an explanation of why they're applying for a particular role that might not seem like an obvious fit with their interests. But why do you think men with children earn more than men who don't? It isn't because organisations helpfully just give them more money to feed their children, it's because they are under more pressure to progress.

Alexa - I don’t disagree with you, but some men will do exactly what they’re going to do, career-wise, whether they have a family or not. They don’t expect to be impeded in any way. If my husband was single, he’d be exactly where he is now. I don’t doubt it. He’s always done what he wanted, when he wanted. He’s self-employed and has multiple business interests, so no fixed hours, no fixed salary (it depends what he wants to take out) and generally no clear cut-off between work and home life. If he needs to travel at a moment’s notice, he goes. If he’s working evenings or weekends or even on holidays, that’s that. No week is the same and it never was. The only difference being, he’d have no family or children to leave his money to. He does say, he wants to make a “generational change” financially and the kids inspire him to do this. But basically, he’s a workaholic personality and these people are like this, regardless. I know quite a lot of men like this. I could just about 50 to 100 off the top of my head; though probably only one woman I know has this mentality.

But why do you think men with children earn more than men who don't? It isn't because organisations helpfully just give them more money to feed their children, it's because they are under more pressure to progress.

Given that we live in a patriarchy, possibly it is because (subconsciously) managers offer better opportunities and pay to men who need to “support their families” while also being oblivious to women who are also main income earners because (subconsciously) women work for pin money. In the olden days employers were honest and upfront about it, now it’s hidden.

Also, men with families tend to have a woman to do the heavy lifting with the kids. They can prioritise their careers and their income. Women with children tend not to be able to do this, hence they get paid less. Women know it’s all against them in the career stakes so many make the logical decision to prioritise their partner’s career.

If being the main income earner was more stressful, more men would opt out and support their wives in forging their careers. More would do more at home so their wives could at least contribute more significantly financially. And yet statistically, very few do. How do we explain that if there isn’t significant upside to being the one with the career and the money?

@BeIIend

In families where the father had stopped work while his partner continued, on average they did the same amount of household work – while the woman did an average of five hours of paid work a day.

From the Guardian about the discrepancy during lockdown. Even men with no work are only doing the same amount of household work as their working wives.

It's simply not true what the posters on this thread are saying.

Do you not understand statistics? Some men will do 0% of housework up to 100% ( not many I would agree) Of course there are some men doing 50% I just love the way you need to tell me what my DH is doing? Just why does it annoy other women if someone else has the most basic support? If I ever mention it the comments start- oh I bet he doesnt do it properly etc

This week he has done everything at home because he is off and Im doing extra.
Yes men need a massive kick up the arse .
But they arent going to kick themselves are they !

Just why does it annoy other women if someone else has the most basic support?

I don’t think anyone is annoyed that some women have the most basic support. Just a few of us pointing out that the most basic support is the most that the majority of women can hope for.

All the DH/DPs on this thread that do 50:50 are a statistical anomaly.

@karmakameleon

Just why does it annoy other women if someone else has the most basic support?

I don’t think anyone is annoyed that some women have the most basic support. Just a few of us pointing out that the most basic support is the most that the majority of women can hope for.

All the DH/DPs on this thread that do 50:50 are a statistical anomaly.

I was referring to 50/50 as the most basic support As in equal share of domestic labour.

Whenever I’ve said on a thread like this that we split it 50:50 no one has been annoyed. But I recognise that ours is a very unusual situation and most people do not have a fair split. And I also recognise that studies show that even when couples think they split the load 50:50, the woman usually does more, so maybe a time and motion study would show I’m wrong. (I don’t think it would. If I did I’d do something about it but again, many woman can’t so all the posters telling the OP that it’s her fault possibly aren’t being the most helpful.)

Are there no weekends where you live? Don't babies there eat, poo and scream on Saturdays?

This has probably been mentioned but you can split parental leave: www.gov.uk/shared-parental-leave-and-pay. My DH took 7 months paternity leave - longer than my mat leave!

But why do you think men with children earn more than men who don't? It isn't because organisations helpfully just give them more money to feed their children, it's because they are under more pressure to progress.

I certainly see some of this with my colleagues. We’re all high earners but it’s still not enough for some of the wives who seem to have property and holiday aspirations way above their husbands pay scales. Or where their wives have also been high earners pre-children and seem to think they can go PT or give up work all together with zero impact on lifestyle.

I’ve even had people say to me “it’s ok for you, you don’t need a pay rise, you have a husband that earns”.

But worries about promotions, wages, being dismissed etc… is true regardless of

• whether you are a parent or not. Most women will have worked before having children and will have lived on their own. I know I have. And whilst the what if can raise its ugly head, I never found it so sould crunching tbh.
• whether you are the main bread winner or not. Many women might be working part time with some ‘little jobs’ but the reality is that their job is what makes it or break it re family finances. Yes it might ‘only’ be £400. But those £400 are still essential and finding a ‘little job’ that fits around childcare etc… is nowhere near that easy. Which also means that those women WILL be worrying about loosing their job, getting a promotion etc… too.

And on the top of that, they will be worrying about the fact they are not building their pension up, have lost their career etc etc… all of which men do not worry about.

@NakedAttraction

But why do you think men with children earn more than men who don't? It isn't because organisations helpfully just give them more money to feed their children, it's because they are under more pressure to progress.

I certainly see some of this with my colleagues. We’re all high earners but it’s still not enough for some of the wives who seem to have property and holiday aspirations way above their husbands pay scales. Or where their wives have also been high earners pre-children and seem to think they can go PT or give up work all together with zero impact on lifestyle.

I’ve even had people say to me “it’s ok for you, you don’t need a pay rise, you have a husband that earns”.

I’ve even had people say to me “it’s ok for you, you don’t need a pay rise, you have a husband that earns”.

That’s what people say though.
It doesn’t mean that it’s the reality….

I’ve even had people say to me “it’s ok for you, you don’t need a pay rise, you have a husband that earns

And this is exactly what perpetuates the virtuous circle (for men). Women don’t need pay rises, they work for fun. Men have families to support, need to compensate them properly.

think a lot of men don't think about the work involved in the raising of children as they're barely doing it solo so always have support. Men rarely solo parent newborn babies while mum goes back to work week 2.

Speak for yourself. My DH was looking after Ds solo from the get go. I wouldn't have stood for anything less. I may have taken may leave ( shared parental leave wasn't available) but he took over in the evening and at weekends.

Sorry your husbands a useless partner OP but YABU not every man is like that

Sorry, but most men I know are extremely hands on and childcare is 50:50 when both work the same hours. I know of only one exception and he was a selfish twat both pre and post birth.