To think this is a ridiculous reason for DS to be put into isolation?

[varskudd]

DS(15) came home from school very annoyed yesterday, he said he was put into isolation for having a drawing on his hand/wrist. He got bored so he drew on his hand with a pen, but it's not just scribbles.

Apparently, he was told to go to the toilet and wash it off and he tried to but it wouldn't come off so they sent him to isolation. He tried to get it off at home and it wouldn't, I tried to this morning and it slightly faded but it's still there.

Aibu to think this is ridiculous?

Glad you got him out of there, itsgettingweird. Sounds like a complete hellhole.

@SamusIsAGirl *These stupid rules seem to be about control and territorial pissing rather than aiding an educational environment.
*

In my experience deliberate defiance of rules purely for the sake of it by both students and their parents who invariably back them up is more about control and territorial pissing...

Students who don't have a pen are a pain in the arse, and most of them don't have a pen because they can't be bothered to ensure they've got one. The same students rarely forget their mobile phone... Any of my students know that if they don't have a pen/pencil they come to me or their form tutor and they bloody well get one - if they choose not to do that (read also, can't be arsed to) then I have no sympathy if they get given a detention. I know the difference between the kids that can't afford one and those who can't be arsed and I deal with them accordingly...

If you send your child to a school then please trust the professionals that work with them. If you don't, by all means take your concerns to their HOY where they can get a trawl done of the behaviour of your child in all areas of school (unstructured times included) and they can share that information with you so you can see the bigger picture.

Every child I've ever removed from a classroom because of their behaviour has insisted they have done nothing wrong (until we've had a conversation and they've usually then conceded that the rest of the class don't really want to be distracted by them messing about...) The same children go home and tell their parents that they've done nothing wrong too. It usually starts with 'can you stop drawing on your arm please' or ironically 'why haven't you got a pen' and escalates because kids can be belligerent buggers and there is a huge pressure on teachers to get a lesson started so that they can get the whole class engaged. Everyone is under pressure so you know what, the teacher gets frustrated and removes them, they then argue and then I get called to come along and take the child to 'isolation'.

There seems to be a misconception on here that students sit silently waiting for their lessons to start while small woodland creatures hand out pens and ask students to remove coats/earbuds/put their phones away etc and that any naughty kids (who are just having a laugh anyway) are routinely ignored by the rest of the class until they realise, and then they sit up straight and start paying attention. Even the best student in the world will turn into a PITA if their attention isn't grabbed immediately...

And for what it's worth Isolation at my school is very much a nurturing and safe environment - students who have been removed from a lesson will be put in there until their next lesson begins or they may be kept in there if they are on a self-destruct mission that day (so work can be done to see wtf is going on), a student who is struggling emotionally may be using it as a safe, quiet place to sit, a student who cannot manage a particular lesson might be in there working independently.

It's a good job I absolutely adore the kids I work with and love my job because Jesus the posts on this thread (and other recent ones) are just soul destroying to read.

@itsgettingwierd That sounds like utter shit and you are completely right to complain as loudly and to as many people as possible

:34Lilypansy
25SeaPinks. Why? Do people who go to Michaela not have autocorrect on their phone?
I very much doubt that Michaela pupils are allowed phones in school. (Happy to be corrected on this)
My point is that the children there emerge with an education that enables them to distinguish between advice/ advise without needing technological help
My point was that the person who wrote advise instead of advice may have had a word altered wrongly by autocorrect, regardless of what school they went to. Happens all the time. It's a bit of a cheap shot. There may even be kids at Michaela with an SEN which means they make spelling mistakes after they leave school that aren't caused by autocorrect.

My point was that the person who wrote advise instead of advice may have had a word altered wrongly by autocorrect, regardless of what school they went to
I doubt that very much. Far more likely that the poster complaining about isolation is, in fact, not terribly well educated herself/ himself.
Michaela School has an excellent approach to SEN children.

In my experience deliberate defiance of rules purely for the sake of it by both students and their parents who invariably back them up is more about control and territorial pissing...

Nothing of the sort. If there are rational reasons for rules for which students and parents can see the logic, of course rules should be obeyed. I’d never have backed violation of them.

But drawing on hands, a hair bobble on a wrist, just no. No parent should back nonsensical rules, if there’s no good reason for them they shouldn’t exist.

Bingowingslikeashieldofsteel

👏 👏 👏
Much more eloquent than me.

Yes. Isn't it just the removal of an audience for their antics?

Kind of, yes. But I'm not sure you could call doodling on your arm 'antics' or something asking for any kind of audience. I'm very much all for isolation for disruptive behaviour in class. Not for having the wrong colour pen or ink on your arm.

No, I don't think so either. Which I why I suspect there was a little more to it than op has disclosed.

“ And for what it's worth Isolation at my school is very much a nurturing and safe environment - students who have been removed from a lesson will be put in there until their next lesson begins or they may be kept in there if they are on a self-destruct mission that day (so work can be done to see wtf is going on), a student who is struggling emotionally may be using it as a safe, quiet place to sit, a student who cannot manage a particular lesson might be in there working independently.”

Right - that’s not isolation then is it?!

@MrsTWH

“ And for what it's worth Isolation at my school is very much a nurturing and safe environment - students who have been removed from a lesson will be put in there until their next lesson begins or they may be kept in there if they are on a self-destruct mission that day (so work can be done to see wtf is going on), a student who is struggling emotionally may be using it as a safe, quiet place to sit, a student who cannot manage a particular lesson might be in there working independently.”

Right - that’s not isolation then is it?!

What is it then?

It’s so frustrating for teachers. They start a lesson, 30 plus kids, they ask them to take out their pen. If even 5 of them don’t have a pen then that is so disruptive.

So you could send those 5 to isolation, disrupting the class whilst you do so, causing them to miss out on valuable learning and risking a disability discrimination action in relation to the kids with executive function difficulties/dyslexia etc; or you could just keep a few spare pens or pencils and lend them out. I know which makes more sense to me.

It's important for parents to be on the same side as the school when it comes to discipline or it sends your child mixed messages, and the next time the school try to impose another rule, they'll question it again.

Far too many schools have zero tolerance rules that don't take account of disability. So no, parents shouldn't support a school which is effectively punishing a child for being autistic, dyslexic or whatever, and the school absolutely should be questioned. Not least because in that situation it is the school that is breaking considerably more important rules.

Call the school and find out why he got out in isolation for that. Probably more to it.

@SamusIsAGirl

I wonder what happens when people leave Michaela schools and actually have to do independent, critical thinking? Grades or not, that's then the wheels come off.

Apparently that is a very real problem, because they're spoon-fed standard answers even in subjects like Humanities.

I really feel one of the greatest problems in society currently is the fact that too many children never received any sort of teaching in critical thinking, hence problems like the acceptance of stupid rules and, indeed, hence the fact that we currently have the most corrupt and stupid government in the western world. And, of course, they utterly love schools like Michaela.

Put

Dc are put in isolation booths as a deterent to being disruptive and for defying the 'engage to learn' strategy... In isolation you aren't enforced to do any work at all. They booths aren't manned by specific teachers.. Sheets are given out and are optional

This. And when they are used for days at a time, it means pupils are being denied their legal right to full time education.

There was a dreadful case around three or four years ago where a child with SEN was constantly in isolation without being given anything to do, so that she was just staring at blank walls for hours. She ended up making a very serious suicide attempt. When she eventually returned to school, they started using the same tactic. It took a serious threat of legal action to make them see sense.

I really feel one of the greatest problems in society currently is the fact that too many children never received any sort of teaching in critical thinking, hence problems like the acceptance of stupid rules and, indeed, hence the fact that we currently have the most corrupt and stupid government in the western world. And, of course, they utterly love schools like Michaela

Nail on head.

Who pays for all these pens!! The kids don’t give them back.

It is or should be routine for the teacher to stand by the door and not let them leave till they've given back the pens. If that's the routine, it's generally accepted IME. It also incentivises them a bit either to remember their pens or remember to give borrowed ones back, otherwise they'll be delayed going out and potentially look a bit stupid in front of their mates.

@SeaPinks

:34Lilypansy 25SeaPinks. Why? Do people who go to Michaela not have autocorrect on their phone? I very much doubt that Michaela pupils are allowed phones in school. (Happy to be corrected on this) My point is that the children there emerge with an education that enables them to distinguish between advice/ advise without needing technological help My point was that the person who wrote advise instead of advice may have had a word altered wrongly by autocorrect, regardless of what school they went to. Happens all the time. It's a bit of a cheap shot. There may even be kids at Michaela with an SEN which means they make spelling mistakes after they leave school that aren't caused by autocorrect.

I used to be paid quite a lot of money write for publications you’ve almost certainly purchased yourself. My ability to think and express ideas clearly were what was valued. We had subeditors.

This is irrelevant to your defence of harsh, borderline cruel discipline though, as you well know.

I don't know if this is a mumsnet thing and in reality most schools have less rules regarding appearance. But I'm not originally from UK and these kinds of threads make me worry about sending my kids to school. I know it's a small thing but I find these very infuriating.

I can understand dicipling the student if the doodles were outright innaproptiate (racism, making fun if other student etc.) But random doodles?

I can understand dicipling the student if the doodles were outright innaproptiate (racism, making fun if other student etc.) But random doodles?

Can you see how this is actually more complicated and difficult to understand and enforce, especially for students with additional needs?
Your rules: you can draw on your hand, unless it is inappropriate eg making fun of another student.
Can they make fun of a student at another school? Of a famous person?
Writing ‘Fuck’ is inappropriate, but what about ‘F*#k’ or ‘Fock’?

One rule - don’t draw on yourself. Easy to understand, easy to enforce.

@Elisheva

I can understand dicipling the student if the doodles were outright innaproptiate (racism, making fun if other student etc.) But random doodles?

Can you see how this is actually more complicated and difficult to understand and enforce, especially for students with additional needs?
Your rules: you can draw on your hand, unless it is inappropriate eg making fun of another student.
Can they make fun of a student at another school? Of a famous person?
Writing ‘Fuck’ is inappropriate, but what about ‘F*#k’ or ‘Fock’?

One rule - don’t draw on yourself. Easy to understand, easy to enforce.

But that’s completely illogical. You can’t draw on your hands but you can draw on paper and there are no rules about appropriateness.

It’s tackling the wrong issue. The rule should be that wherever you draw we don’t make fun of other people or swear - to use your example. Kids would understand that. Not drawing on your hands is just trivial and fails to address the real issue.

Kids would understand that.
No, they wouldn’t. They would take the edges of that rule and start to push them.
They would argue that what they had written/drawn was okay because of reasons.
And then all of the teachers time is spent negotiating.
For whatever reason that particular school has made a rule that you may not draw on yourself. It’s not exactly hard to follow.

@Elisheva

Kids would understand that. No, they wouldn’t. They would take the edges of that rule and start to push them. They would argue that what they had written/drawn was okay because of reasons. And then all of the teachers time is spent negotiating. For whatever reason that particular school has made a rule that you may not draw on yourself. It’s not exactly hard to follow.

So essentially you’re saying they can draw what the fuck they like as long as it’s not on their hands? Which is an utterly ridiculous rule which you’ve completely failed to justify in any rational way in God only knows how many posts. No wonder kids push boundaries when having to deal with such illogical adults.

So essentially you’re saying they can draw what the fuck they like as long as it’s not on their hands?
What? Not at all. The rule here is that you are not allowed to draw on your hands, which everyone else has tried to justify by saying it is okay as long as…
My argument is that a clear, unambiguous rule is much easier to follow than one with a hundred different exceptions.
The rule around what they are or aren’t allowed to draw on paper/desk/walls are a separate matter.

Often apparently stupid rules have had to be introduced following even more ridiculous behaviour from teenagers.