To my half siblings shouldn’t get 50% of my parent’s house?

[reannneeee]

Paternal half siblings. They are 20 and 22 years older than me. Their mum joint owns with their stepdad and she was better off after the divorce as he left her the house. Me and my full brother raised in social housing as my mum and dad always struggled for money.

My parents ended up expressing a wish to purchase their property with Right To Buy in my late teens. They had a fair amount saved up but nowhere near enough. The property is in a desirable area and I saw it as a steal to get it with the Right To Buy Discount, so I agreed to save up and then give the money to my parents to use to be able to use Right To Buy. I ended up providing about 75% of the money (it took a good few years and meant I spent bugger all on fun and delayed my own life events) used for it. My full sibling has a learning disability and can’t live independently. The deal between me, my mum and dad was if I helped them to be able to buy the house, once they go I could have it and use 25% of the money on supporting my brother. None of the house is mine legally but we knew it’d benefit me and my brother in future if I helped them buy it now.

This was a few years ago. DF has now decided to write a will, he isn’t ill but wants to in the event of a sudden death. He has decided he’d feel guilty doing the original plan and excluding his older children. He now wants us to have 25% of the house each. He says that my financial support in making it possible for them to buy the house is negated by the fact that they let me live there rent free. I’ve not expressed this to him but I’m quite annoyed. My mum was also the bigger contributor for their portion of the deposit out of the 2 of them. I also know that when they go, all of the care for DB will go on me. I’ve already been told I’ll be his power of attorney, will manage his money etc. My half siblings are significantly older with their own well established lives. Mum is upset as well but doesn’t want to rock the boat.

Aibu to think DF is being unfair?

@knittingaddict

You can't just ringfence the money or put a charge on a house without evidence of this being a loan. It appears to be a gift and will be treated as such. Honestly are people just saying what they want to be true, rather than what is the legal reality?

This could all have happened 20 years ago for all the imformation the op has given. In any case the op doesn't seem so keen in the cold light of day, do they?

the presumption (legally) is that people DO NOT give others money as a gift to buy a house (unless father to children and husbands to wife)

The presumption, under resulting trust principles, is that it is intended to buy a share in the property.

A lawyer needs to be seen obviously. And the numbers run as to what share she may be entitled to as we don't know them. it may not be worth doing if for a 5% deposit that she paid (as legal costs of a claim may be £10_£20k etc) as the parents share would include the mortageg and the right to buy discount.

I didn’t bloody create right to buy!

Blame Thatcher. While the scheme is around, people can use it.

The house value when bought was £300k. We got the RTB discount and then there was the deposit as well.

Also calling me a greedy chancer. Half-sibs both got deposit money from their mum. They are doing bloody fine.

I really dont see how paying 75% of the deposit entitles you to anything like 75% of the house. Or why your half siblings should be disinterested entirely. Although, as I pointed out up thread, they probably will be if your dad dies first.

YANBU and surely he cannot unilaterally decide this. Is the house not in both of your parents names? I'd be rocking that boat big style OP

Half-sibs both got deposit money from their mum

That doesn't mean they shouldn't get from their dad too. Would you be happy just getting your mums half?

My half siblings wanted for nothing. They were adults by the time I was born but as far as I know, dad had them pretty much 50/50.

Their mum gave them house deposits but I didn’t include that as it’s not relevant.

But since somebody has pretty much claimed that by working my arse off, delaying my further education, not moving out etc to enable my parents to buy their property, I have stolen from the poor things MY mum also is the higher earner, earned more of their share of the deposit and was what helped them get the mortgage.

Half sibs will also do bugger all for DB. I’m the full siblings so I’ll get all the responsibility there.

Ah I see my 10 minute rule has been proved once again - suggest the op won't be back and there they are within 10 minutes.

So it was the deposit. That helps.

How much did you pay into the deposit?

How long ago?

Like I said previously a fair settlement in a will would be your deposit amount plus interest (maybe) and a 25% share of the remainder.

@Andromache77

I think that I would remind my dad that he has it all wrong. You paid the lion's share of the price, therefore it is you who are allowing him and your mum to live there rent free, not the other way round. And yes, look at the paper trail and talk to a solicitor to see if you can have your contribution recognised or else reimbursed, plus interest and market rate rent on your 75% since the purchase, minus rent on their 25%, so basically 50% rent, also plus interest. This may well be more than the house is currently worth, so do some simple calculations. Even if you cannot prove it to a legal standard, presenting the situation like this might give your dad a reality check, although I get a feeling that he considers your earnings as his own in some way. Is he controlling? Old fashioned in the wrong way, in the sense of "I'm the paterfamilias, everything is mine and my word is the law"? I get a feeling that he is, so in that case consult with a solicitor first, it's a significant amount of money of yours that he's planning to give away (probably to massage his own ego, not so much to be "fair" to your half siblings), and you have to fight your corner if at all possible.

All of this!

Morally if not legally the house is 75% yours. Tell your parents they can divide their 25% however they like...

How much was the deposit? 10% so you paid about £20k?

I think it would be fair if it was written into the Will that you get the present day value of this before the house is carved up.

Your mum leaves her half to you and your brother; your dad leaves his half to his four children.

Seems fair and recognises your contribution.

@MichelleScarn

I put £42k into that house. They put in bugger all.

It took years. I was lucky to be able to leave school into a job paying £16k.

Part of the value of the property comes from the discount allowed to your parents so that was part of their contribution, your parents (but mostly your mum) supplied another percentage of the deposit. So you can work out what percentage of the property was their contribution. Your contribution was the money you put in as the deposit which is your equitable interest in the property. You say there is a mortgage over the property so who holds that and who pays it? When will it be repaid?

If you establish what you paid originally and what percentage of the value of the total property that equated to then you should receive back that money plus that percentage of the equity on the sale. That should repay your investment. If you feel aggrieved enough then you could say that you either want your father to repay you the deposit plus the equivalent value of the equity built up over the years now or you want a charge over the property to ensure that you get your money back first before and division of assets following your parents death. Sensibly speaking you should have asked for a charge to have been put in place at the point of buying the property as it would have set things out on the right foot.

Doing this now may be the nuclear option though as it is unlikely to foster good future relations with you Father.

If you feel strongly enough about being reimbursed for your contribution then see a solicitor.

Do you have evidence of your contribution, if yes, your argument becomes quite strong.
Your dad seems to think his will is the be all and end all of the matter, but your mother will satistically probably outlive him, which could surely change things. Does she have a will?

Regardless of you putting the money in for the deposit… why the hell should your half siblings get half of the property when they are not the children of your mother who is the joint property owner?

The normal thing to do would be your dad splits his half 4 ways between his 4 children and your mother splits her half between her 2 children.

Your half siblings will also inherit from their own mother so this is the fairest way surely??

Therefore…
Half sibling 1 = 12.5% of the house
Half sibling 2 = 12.5% of the house
Brother = 37.5% of the house
You = 37.5% of the house

HOWEVER, seeing as you enabled them to buy the house through your own money then I personally would say you should get 50% of the house and the other siblings/half siblings 16.6%.

Therefore your half siblings get treated the same as your brother but you get more to compensate for your financial sacrifice

I don’t even really expect 75% of the house at this point because obviously there is still a mortgage which I’m not paying off.

I’m just so angry at my dad, he is not being fair. I’m going to be supporting DB for the rest of our lives. Part of the reason we agreed to buy the house was to ensure his future. He gets DLA but we want to make sure he’ll have the best of everything, best supported accommodation etc.

Even 60/40% between me and DB and half siblings I could probably just about accept but 25% each has really hurt me.

It’s not just about the financial aspect as I’d still do well on 25%. It’s the fact I feel deceived.

the presumption (legally) is that people DO NOT give others money as a gift to buy a house (unless father to children and husbands to wife)

The presumption, under resulting trust principles, is that it is intended to buy a share in the property.

A lawyer needs to be seen obviously. And the numbers run as to what share she may be entitled to as we don't know them. it may not be worth doing if for a 5% deposit that she paid (as legal costs of a claim may be £10_£20k etc) as the parents share would include the mortageg and the right to buy discount.

Could you do a link to that please? In the UK?

A loan or a gift has to be declared at the time the mortgage is taken out. It is possible that the events in the op all happened before declarations were required, but without a loan agreement I can't see that this would be viewed as anything other than a gift.

[quote reannneeee]@MichelleScarn

I put £42k into that house. They put in bugger all.

It took years. I was lucky to be able to leave school into a job paying £16k.[/quote]
£56k a fairly significant deposit for a discounted right to buy property?

I’m also fuming that he’s just turned his back on mum’s wishes like this.

In all likelihood she’ll outlive him and it’ll be a non-issue but in the event of a sudden death on her part DF will get his way.

All of this!

Morally if not legally the house is 75% yours. Tell your parents they can divide their 25% however they like...

FGS can people at least read the op's posts. He/she did not pay 75% of the house valuation. IT WAS 75% OF THE DEPOSIT!

@GreyhoundG1rl.

We’re in one of the most expensive areas of the country. Without the discount it would have been a no-go. Parents are older so we did need a bigger deposit %.

I think that the tenants can buy with other family members who have also lived there for a certain legth of time.

So if this was the case when Op's parents applied she should be able to make a claim I would have thought.

@diddl

I think that the tenants can buy with other family members who have also lived there for a certain legth of time.

So if this was the case when Op's parents applied she should be able to make a claim I would have thought.

That boat has sailed, although the op hasn't said yet how long ago this was. I suspect it's been a while.

@knittingaddict

the presumption (legally) is that people DO NOT give others money as a gift to buy a house (unless father to children and husbands to wife)

The presumption, under resulting trust principles, is that it is intended to buy a share in the property.

A lawyer needs to be seen obviously. And the numbers run as to what share she may be entitled to as we don't know them. it may not be worth doing if for a 5% deposit that she paid (as legal costs of a claim may be £10_£20k etc) as the parents share would include the mortageg and the right to buy discount.

Could you do a link to that please? In the UK?

A loan or a gift has to be declared at the time the mortgage is taken out. It is possible that the events in the op all happened before declarations were required, but without a loan agreement I can't see that this would be viewed as anything other than a gift.

www.macfarlanes.com/what-we-think/in-depth/2020/presumption-of-advancement-gifts-to-adult-children/

www.inbrief.co.uk/property-law/presumption-of-advancement-relationships/

This is the UK rules but its based on case law and trust principles, not actually a law.
The articles are mostly saying about doing away with the concept that it would be a gift if done parents to child, as with anyone else, its assumed, Unless CLEAR EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY (ie them saying IT IS A GIFT in writing) that its not a gift, but an intention to get a share in the property.

'Rent free'? You owned the fucking house. He should be paying you back rent. And I'd tell him that, too.

Hi OP,

I know you've posted about your DM outliving your father but depending on the type of will and how they hold the house, he might be able to tie your mother's hands so it might be an idea to try and get your mother on board.

Good luck.

I never wanted to be legally involved with the house. I wanted to help them purchase the house as an investment for mine and DB’s future, and then as soon as it was done I left. I wanted to be able to forget about the house then until further notice, I moved into a rental property and lived my own life. I stayed with my parents rent free for a long time to be able to save the money.