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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

So embarrassed to be English today

999 replies

UpSlyDown · 12/07/2021 12:20

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

OP posts:
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7
FloconDeNeige · 14/07/2021 14:42

I live in Switzerland. I’m an immigrant (working class, U.K.) in a highly culturally diverse area, although most of those cultures are white. Am I winning or losing in the moral superiority stakes?!

IcedPurple · 14/07/2021 14:42

@Secondbellini

The idea that people who live in diverse areas consider themselves morally superior had shaped a lot of recent politics.

It was explored in the book anywheres and somewheres. There are quite a few articles on it.

A very interesting book. I didn't agree with all the author's conclusions, but definitely food for thought. Mind you, a lot of the 'anywheres' live in very white areas - they just like briefly visiting more 'vibrant' diverse parts of town for cheap ethnic restaurants and street cred.

Also, if diversity is a mark of superiority, does that mean that England is 'better' than Wales or Scotland, being considerably more ethnically diverse than either?

Nightlystroll · 14/07/2021 14:50

I don't get this thread. When Shipman killed all those people, Fred and Rose West murdered those young women, the truth behind the Hillsborough disaster was revealed - were you embarrassed to be English? Why allow a small bunch of thugs to make you feel ashamed of our beautiful country. On the contrary, you should be proud of how English people have pushed back against the behaviour of an abhorrent few.

DottyHarmer · 14/07/2021 14:55

Nah. Some are entrenched in the narrative that this is a shite place to live, we have a crap history, a worthless literary heritage and that everyone outside the M25 is a card-carrying member of the NF.

igelkott2021 · 14/07/2021 14:58

We need to focus on our behaviour and how to manage it and leave other countries to sort out theirs

I disagree - FIFA and UEFA could show leadership and coordinate a response across all countries. There is no point each country (or indeed club) reinventing the wheel, although the problems vary from country to country and from club to club, so some of the solutions would necessarily be country or club-specific.

But as an example, the Scottish national fans are fine. But when they put their Ranger or Celtic shirts on, not so much.

The situation is much more nuanced than "English fans are nasty thuggish brutes and you are not allowed to say not all of them".

x2boys · 14/07/2021 15:00

@DottyHarmer

Nah. Some are entrenched in the narrative that this is a shite place to live, we have a crap history, a worthless literary heritage and that everyone outside the M25 is a card-carrying member of the NF.
Indeed and yet ironically it was at Wembley that it all. Kicked off, obviously must have been the thick, scummy northerners though,, I mean look what happened in Withington yesterday, but no one's talking about that as it doesn't fit the narrative
igelkott2021 · 14/07/2021 15:02

We need to focus on our behaviour and how to manage it and leave other countries to sort out theirs

It's also not "our" behaviour. As some of us have said from the word go on this thread, there is no collective responsibility for thuggish fan behaviour.

Thisisworsethananticpated · 14/07/2021 15:08

Meh

If being ashamed of England right now is a mental health issue then a large amount of people are mentally ill

I don’t care if italy did X Y Z either

This is my country and I want us to be better

And the very fact that all my black friends predicted this says it all really

They weren’t surprised at all , the minute the match ended the prediction started

sjacky594 · 14/07/2021 15:19

I abhor and condemn racism and violence to anyone but as Marcus Rashford so rightly said, I refuse to apologise for who I am and where I come from. I am white, I am English and I am proud of my heritage and my culture. I resent bitterly the accusation that because I am white that automatically makes me complacent and racist.

Secondbellini · 14/07/2021 15:19

A large amount of people are mentally ill, and hatred and divisiveness due to all forms of racial discrimination is contributing to that.

‘ In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin’

For people who don’t understand what racial discrimination is.

VerticalHorizon · 14/07/2021 16:42

@Nightlystroll

I don't get this thread. When Shipman killed all those people, Fred and Rose West murdered those young women, the truth behind the Hillsborough disaster was revealed - were you embarrassed to be English? Why allow a small bunch of thugs to make you feel ashamed of our beautiful country. On the contrary, you should be proud of how English people have pushed back against the behaviour of an abhorrent few.
I think there's a distinction, but the lines are blurry...

In the case of Shipman or Fred and Rose, we can fairly easily put these down to extreme outliers in terms of human behaviour. They aren't unique, but per capita, they are so rare, we can reasonably assume them to be individual cases.

In terms of patterns in groups (such as football hooliganism, or excessive drinking, drug taking, sexual trends etc), then we can look at other populations and see some similar patterns of behaviour - so we know it's not unique to England, but at the same time, we can also look to our culture (which may also be shared with those other populations) and question what it is that makes a significant number of people behave the way they do.

Germany has hooligans, drug issues, gambling problems... as does, Sweden, or France, or Greece etc. So we know there is commonality or a 'normalness' about such behaviours, but what we do not fully understand is what drives that behaviour, and if we, in England might have specific issues that might cause MORE hooliganism, or MORE alcoholism etc.

People shoot each other the world over, but some countries have a significantly greater problem than others. It's a shared problem, but the degree of it differs.
The USA might have a fairly high gun crime rate compared with (say) Canada, but it might be lesser than that of South Africa.

It is not enough to say 'other countries have the problem too'. Of course that's true. But we have to look to our own country and say 'but how can we reduce OUR problem with it?'. We might never eliminate it, but I'm sure we can increase, or decrease it depending on how well we seek to understand and manage it.

Racism is a world wide issue.
Racism exists in all cultures, across sexes, across religions and ages.
There is very little to be gained from 'whataboutery', but there is so much to be gained from trying to improve our immediate neighbourhood. It's starts with me, then my friends, then my neighbourhood, then my region and country... and hopefully, someone in France, and Italy, and Sweden are doing the same thing.

Secondbellini · 14/07/2021 16:52

The thread wasn’t about what shall we do though. It was about embarrassment and shame.

In both the West and Shipman cases there were huge failures from authorities over and over again which allowed those crimes to be committed. That is part of a wider problem with how crime is dealt with, so is a matter of importance to the running of the country in a democratic and non-corrupt manner. It is therefore just as much worthy of asking what should be done as we should in cases of racial discrimination.

It is also just as much worthy of national shame, that vulnerable people were tortured and murdered, but then I don’t think people should be shamed for their nationality or ethnicity, and attempts to shame people for things they didn’t do are abusive.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 14/07/2021 17:46

Vertical Horizon has it. Fantastic post.

I think this chime with many other points PPs have made about 'what shall we do' as opposed to 'national shame'. Threads ebb and flow and important related points are bound to come up, as is usually the case on any discussion forum. It was an open question, not one requiring a 'yes' or 'no' answer, and the situation is complex.

The conversation as a whole was a lot more nuanced than simply the crude denial and them vs. us bits.

MarshaBradyo · 14/07/2021 17:50

When people say they don’t feel ashamed they are not denying existence of any thuggery or racism.

They are also not saying let’s do nothing.

And probably do just as much as anyone else on this thread who does feel ashamed due to others.

MarshaBradyo · 14/07/2021 17:52

With one addition

They are probably more positive about their country and tend to focus on highlighting the good.

If the left can’t say anything positive about where it wants to represent it will never succeed. Which I do think is a big shame as they’ll be in the wastelands for some time.

roders · 14/07/2021 17:57

Summed up perfectly

JohnStonesMissus · 14/07/2021 18:00

@sjacky594

I abhor and condemn racism and violence to anyone but as Marcus Rashford so rightly said, I refuse to apologise for who I am and where I come from. I am white, I am English and I am proud of my heritage and my culture. I resent bitterly the accusation that because I am white that automatically makes me complacent and racist.
Yes exactly
RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 14/07/2021 18:02

When did it turn into ashamed

Im not ashamed but i am embarrassed as the OP said

MarshaBradyo · 14/07/2021 18:03

the never-ending shame of Brexit

From op appears to be both but shame there and never-ending too

SueSaid · 14/07/2021 18:07

'There is very little to be gained from 'whataboutery', but there is so much to be gained from trying to improve our immediate neighbourhood. It's starts with me, then my friends, then my neighbourhood, then my region and country... '

Yes and look at the communities coming together in support of Rashford. It makes me proud to live in such a diverse and inclusive country .

I'm not ashamed or embarrassed about thugs behaviour. I do condemn it though.

SueSaid · 14/07/2021 18:09

'sjacky594'

'I abhor and condemn racism and violence to anyone but as Marcus Rashford so rightly said, I refuse to apologise for who I am and where I come from. I am white, I am English and I am proud of my heritage and my culture. I resent bitterly the accusation that because I am white that automatically makes me complacent and racist'

Star
jskei · 14/07/2021 18:11

The highly defensive, verbally violent, often personal attacks we're seeing here mirrors exactly the physical violence those thugs felt able to exhibit against those kids trying to win for England.

You vindicate them. They are your henchmen. Your unwillingness to be challenged about racism has given this thuggery license for 30 years.

Your bellicose reaction isn't really hurt of feeling accused, or of "protecting" our national identity. Each one of you saying this is really lying.

Your rage is really weaponised weakness, which is white racial control. Designed to stop the conversation about racism and deter others. Notice we can't get further in this conversation because of name calling and "I'm not a racist" crap? Because White Fragility is doing its job.

Check out...
robindiangelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/zeit-campus-transcript.pdf

SueSaid · 14/07/2021 18:14

'You vindicate them. They are your henchmen. Your unwillingness to be challenged about racism has given this thuggery license for 30 years'

You must rtft. Every single person condemns racism.

MarshaBradyo · 14/07/2021 18:14

[quote jskei]The highly defensive, verbally violent, often personal attacks we're seeing here mirrors exactly the physical violence those thugs felt able to exhibit against those kids trying to win for England.

You vindicate them. They are your henchmen. Your unwillingness to be challenged about racism has given this thuggery license for 30 years.

Your bellicose reaction isn't really hurt of feeling accused, or of "protecting" our national identity. Each one of you saying this is really lying.

Your rage is really weaponised weakness, which is white racial control. Designed to stop the conversation about racism and deter others. Notice we can't get further in this conversation because of name calling and "I'm not a racist" crap? Because White Fragility is doing its job.

Check out...
robindiangelo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/zeit-campus-transcript.pdf[/quote]
Is this a paste from the link or you writing?

Blimey talk about insulting people you’re doing a very good job if so.