So embarrassed to be English today

[UpSlyDown]

Usually I am slightly defensive of the criticism the English get but today I feel like I have nothing left to defend. Riots, defacing murals of wonderful role models for our children, racism, violence. Horrendous behaviour from a considerable number of English fans. We are just playing up to the thuggish, drunk, stupid stereotypes. That along with the decision to just open everything up which has been highly criticised for being bonkers, the never-ending shame of Brexit. For the first time I feel embarrassed to be English and associated with any of this. Having said that, I personally don't know a single person who behaved badly post match or spewed vile racism online (thank god). I also mainly socialise/spend time with left wing remainers it seems.

Does anyone feel the same? Are there any redeeming features of the English or are we doomed to be the laughing stock of the world? I was so proud of our football team (still am) and the unity and excitement everyone felt. Part of me thinks this would have been so different if we won but why should it be?! We should be able to respond to a disappointment like rational adults instead of abusive idiots.

And a degree of responsibility for DV?

Not sure people are thinking beyond I need to have a go at women on mn

I think you might want to consider majority privilege. If an institution, eg best medical practice, has considered an overwhelmingly uniform population, then that is majority privilege. When the population alters, then clearly it is time to adjust.

Lurking waiting to trap people who might use the wrong terminology or sneering at people who have the audacity to support their national team is a self-serving sideshow.

What are you doing to address it?

I take it this is directed at me and will respond to the question in good faith.

I'm not an Instagram user (but do use Twitter). As you ask about social media, wasting my own energy spouting off about ignorance I'm never likely to change is a waste of time. I do think there needs to be better regulation of online media: Twitter for one is a toxic cesspool of horrible prejudice and its attitudes to women are particularly concerning to me. There is also a loathsome ring of people hiding there in plain sight. The fact that this medium permits this to continue is appalling: I'd willingly get behind a campaign to put a stop to it.

Other small points: I'm a member of a Race Network at work, which is a member of a larger network in other similar organizations. This entails for the most part listening to BAME colleagues, understanding what they're up against on a daily basis, campaigning for a better deal for them, and sometimes comprehending issues I wouldn't otherwise have considered. White colleagues then leave the POC some free time to discuss these issues without us. It's been illuminating.

Another small contribution has been to get behind the 'decolonizing the curriculum' idea in Higher Education. The literary canon does not consist of dead white Anglo-Saxon males: time to have a learning tool that acknowledges what it really consists of, even if you don't want to be embroiled in the admittedly sometimes incendiary politics of that.

Where it's safe, it's good to challenge it. If my small child is with me I'm particularly cautious; as a female I have to judge that it won't entail a threat to my personal safety. But I've stood up on public transport before and openly challenged some very unpleasant racism: usually directed at females in Islamic dress, sadly. I don't want to sit still and be complicit.

They are very small steps. But as the old proverb goes, 'do what you can, being what you are'. You never know, if enough of us did ...

wasting my own energy spouting off about ignorance I'm never likely to change is a waste of time. I do think there needs to be better regulation of online media

Ok so no different to anyone else in this case. But you are ok to tell everyone they are doing it wrong.

I’m willing to bet the majority on here do small things you do. But they do not think it means they can castigate anyone for not feeling ashamed.

I really don’t see why posters think they stand apart to the extent they do.

And a degree of responsibility for DV?

DV is almost always the responsibility of men. Sex crime is near-enough exclusively perpetrated by men. It is a male problem; it has entirely different power structures behind it. That's an issue aside from this thread. (The FWR boards are informative on this topic, if it's of interest to you).

@MarshaBradyo

wasting my own energy spouting off about ignorance I'm never likely to change is a waste of time. I do think there needs to be better regulation of online media

Ok so no different to anyone else in this case. But you are ok to tell everyone they are doing it wrong.

I’m willing to bet the majority on here do small things you do. But they do not think it means they can castigate anyone for not feeling ashamed.

I really don’t see why posters think they stand apart to the extent they do.

As I said, bellicose. I'll discuss in good faith but have no time for this.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

And a degree of responsibility for DV?

DV is almost always the responsibility of men. Sex crime is near-enough exclusively perpetrated by men. It is a male problem; it has entirely different power structures behind it. That's an issue aside from this thread. (The FWR boards are informative on this topic, if it's of interest to you).

Have you read the thread?

I did not bring it up it was a pp who kept mentioning the statistic. And my response was why should any female feel ashamed as the victim.

Yes I know about the FWR board thanks. Not sure if you’re trying to be patronising or it’s just unhappy error.

I'll discuss in good faith but have no time for this

What? You need to be seen to be better than all others or you leave. Ok keep going sounds great.

The thing is that “dead Anglo Saxon males” (like Shakespeare?) have stood the test of time. As have others on the curriculum, including, if you hadn’t noticed, women .

Of course include newer writers, but dissing every writer from the past, especially males, is just ignorant. Or you are of the “kill the past” political mindset a la cultural revolution.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Thank you, oh enlightened and benevolent one, for explaining to us what we already know. You’re not in a lecture theatre, you do realise?

Your grandiose and superior language has the opposite effect than you probably imagine. It simply demonstrates your class privilege and highlights your accompanying sneery tone at those you deem below you.

Joining the race network at work, I mean really, do you think that sets you apart? That others don’t do the same (I do)? What are you doing about the root causes of the problem? The disillusioned white underclass of young men who feel anything but privileged, and find some sense of belonging (however morally bankrupt) in fascist and racist groups? I dare say you consider them beneath contempt and wouldn’t touch them with a bargepole.

Oh and I’m not saying such men don’t have white privilege (if they’re white, they obviously do). Although they probably see little tangible evidence of it in their daily lives. After all, it’s about the absence of negatives associated with being non-white. Most people don’t readily notice or appreciate the absence of negatives.

Please don’t trouble to tag. I have no interest in engaging with aggressive, over-emotional posters, or with overreach into fantasy which bears no relation to what I actually wrote.

And kindly stop with the personal attacks.

Thx.

If you’ve no intention in engaging, kindly spare us your sanctimony and pop off elsewhere.

Over emotional? Not at all.

But you do seem to reacting very strongly to the suggestion that what you are doing is not different.

Thx.

As for opening up how much longer can you continue living like this? Lockdown after lockdown and face masks have been proven not to work. I will enjoy my life as too short to be indoors all the time.

Institutional racism in the UK is a fact. Medicine and Law are dominated by white men, with a gross under-representation of BAME people, and all ethnic groups.

The Sewell report stated in the education system, black African, Indian and Bangladeshi pupils perform better than white British ones, taking into account socio-economic status .

But that is just factually untrue and has been widely refuted.

@PippaHugo

Institutional racism in the UK is a fact. Medicine and Law are dominated by white men, with a gross under-representation of BAME people, and all ethnic groups.

The Sewell report stated in the education system, black African, Indian and Bangladeshi pupils perform better than white British ones, taking into account socio-economic status .

But that is just factually untrue and has been widely refuted.

I disagree about medicine from a workforce point of view, but it is an issue in terms of healthcare training, guidelines and the way patients are treated. For example, how many people would know what a meingisitis rash looks like on white skin vs on any other skin? HCPs often overwhelmingly aren't trained to recognise how they present either, and that's just the start.

We need more black African, Indian and Chinese doctors to redress the imbalance. Not to mention women! Grossly under represented, and only one plausible explanation.

‘Is the 38% rise in domestic violence when England lose is that also done by bots outside of England ?’

I am really unclear as to what this has got to do with racism or indeed football really.

Domestic abuse exists in every cultural group, every social class, every interest group.

Domestic abuse is a long term pattern of behaviour. It isn’t a one off act. The football acts as a trigger point for flare ups which lead to victims reporting the abuse to the police and so reporting rises at these times. But the report will then almost always show long term abusive patterns.

Abuse isn’t caused by drinking or watching football. It is caused by the controlling and sadistic interests of abusers.

I feel the way these stats are being presented is giving the impression that people who ordinarily are reasonable suddenly lose their tempers because of a football score, and that really isn’t what is happening here.

Football is altering the timing of reports, not the overall number of people enduring abuse.

@Secondbellini

‘Is the 38% rise in domestic violence when England lose is that also done by bots outside of England ?’

I am really unclear as to what this has got to do with racism or indeed football really.

Domestic abuse exists in every cultural group, every social class, every interest group.

Domestic abuse is a long term pattern of behaviour. It isn’t a one off act. The football acts as a trigger point for flare ups which lead to victims reporting the abuse to the police and so reporting rises at these times. But the report will then almost always show long term abusive patterns.

Abuse isn’t caused by drinking or watching football. It is caused by the controlling and sadistic interests of abusers.

I feel the way these stats are being presented is giving the impression that people who ordinarily are reasonable suddenly lose their tempers because of a football score, and that really isn’t what is happening here.

Football is altering the timing of reports, not the overall number of people enduring abuse.

Very well said.

@PippaHugo

We need more black African, Indian and Chinese doctors to redress the imbalance. Not to mention women! Grossly under represented, and only one plausible explanation.

Aside from the fact that proportionately they aren't underrepresented, also what do you feel that will achieve?

The increase in domestic abuse as a result of football is akin to the increase in abuse when a woman disagrees with a man.
Correlation is not causation.

The abuser will find a trigger... alcohol, gambling, misogyny, perceived misanthropy, sport... you name it.
Yes, football is a huge activity that many men invest emotionally in. That then results in increased DV. None of these things create abusers, they are things the abuser latches on to.

Haven’t rtft but Brazil (for example) has around 30-40 football related deaths per year. Russian fans have been pictured numerous times holding Nazi flags.

Yes, some fans behaviours was deplorable, but it’s quite tame compared to some. Every country has dickheads

Feels good to be Welsh atm 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷