To think that the information we are getting about Wayne Couzens highlights how far men will go to protect other men?

[BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz]

I've always felt uncomfortable about Male judges issuing paltry sentences to Male sexual offenders, on the occasions it does happen.

And now it is emerging how disgusting WCs behaviour has been, knowingly, throughout his time in the police force.

Men (I'll add the old NAMALT here) protect and justify the actions of other men, in the main.

Is this because they themselves are depraved and guilty of similar thoughts or even actions? Or is it some sort of "brotherhood" thing? Could it be that they just want to keep the power they have as a group?

Feels like women are never going to win (and by win I mean, be treated as an equal).

MN - I have specifically put this in AIBU. I do not wish for this to be moved to Feminism.

Oh bless you, @NiceGerbil. I’d say you have started things. You’ve certainly inspired me to want to do something. I’ll start drafting, then. Any more ideas for:

• wording of the letter / things to include;
• cases to cite;
• advice on feasible action from those in politics / law enforcement around what to ask for and language to use for maximum effect;
• starting a petition; and
• any other SM to share this on (I am not on any social media)

…are all welcome. I’ll collate and report back.

Look up Mp diane johnson, just recently shes been involved in this looking for law changes to prevent escalation of sex crimes, im sure shed like the support

Actually I don't get why escalation isn't understood, DV agencies are very clear that grabbing you by the throat is a gateway crime. So why is flashing etc not treated similarly?

Thank you, @BrozTito, I’ve found her website with this

I’ll write to her to see how to best support the cause. Thanks for the recommedation.

It's already known that DV is a public health matter and the "isolated incident" narrative is misleading. There's material about it all over the place, including reports by WHO. Even WAGGGS were talking about it a decade ago.

Personally I think it would be a better use of resources to look at building upon what is already out there than trying to repeat it. Much as I obviously applaud the desire to bring about change.

It's not so much that it's not understood but that it's not acted upon.

@EsmaCannonball and @Frownette agreed, it’s sad, depressing and anger inducing that we have to think and act this way.

I keep my curtains drawn in the rooms I know I’ll go into after a shower 9/10 times. There’s barely any chance of anyone seeing me but I don’t want to risk it. I won’t walk alone at night, and I’m very very mindful of my surroundings and people near me. Frustrating but I know if a man decides to do anything with me I would not be able to fight my way away from him.

I say to my husband that I do understand that man may be cautious of getting beat up/robbed by other men, but as a women it’s that awful, very particular fear for me that one or two punches off a man and I’m probably knocked out.
Or a hand over the mouth and grabbed I know realistically I’d not be able to do much about it.

It’s so sad that women feel like this, day to day.

@shulasCreamCardiganCollection if you ever decide to go with the website database idea, or someone does let me know, i work in data and would volunteer to help set this up etc

Thanks, @takemehometoasda, I agree, building in what’s been achieved is best, not reinventing the wheel. I’ve just written to Diana Johnson, so hope to hear back from her about what’s needed to best help support and drive action.

And thank you, @Toomanyradishes, that is an awesome offer.

I hope I’m not hijacking, I just think I’m lucky to have time at my disposal to do something with all the wisdom we share here. And I’m keen to do something constructive. It’s beyond necessary now.

[quote Frownette]@Oilyoilyoilgob yes I frequently don't sleep well and love taking a walk at night, it gives me a sense of freedom.

I had an odd encounter with a man so have stopped that but feel a bit angry that it's been taken away from me - can't take the risk though. The world would be so different if women didn't have to be alert to threats[/quote]
This is the part of it that makes me so angry.

Yes there's a large amount of men about who do supposedly trivial things. The flashers, gropers, the ones who follow, stare etc.

The attack a total stranger on the streets is not rare sadly but it's not everyday.

The everyday is partners, relatives, those with trusted roles (religion, police, doctor, teacher, black cab driver, charity worker, solicitor, work colleague, etc etc who the victim knows and trusts). It's new and old friends, local people the victim knows. It's men met in pubs clubs bars and dates. It's often about opportunity. And this is variously. He's a pillar of the community/ you went back with him happily/ you were drunk/ he said she said etc.

Anyway.

I was reckless when I was young for various reasons.

I went home with randoms, got hammered, walked home in the middle of the night, staggered about etc. The behaviour that we are told if you're female is... Asking for trouble. Etc etc

In my personal experience. Most men are fine. I mean from a coercy attacky POV.

The things that happened were when I was supposed to be safe according to the accepted view.

Harrassment in the daytime in school uniform on way home from school.

Countless dodgy men on public transport in the daytime.

An ex boyfriend at lunchtime.

In the pub with loads of people about.

Etc etc.

I know everyone's experiences are different but I have always felt really angry that the accepted ways that women and girls are supposed to restrict their lives are nothing to do with the actual risks and how likely they are.

IF the lists and teams and messages that women and girls get from young were actually to protect them.

Then we'd be told to wander around at night all the time and get off with men in clubs but NEVER live in a household with a man!

These 'precautions' just tell women and girls. You are prey. And if anything happens then you did something wrong.

So spend money on cabs. Don't relax- be on the alert for yourself and your friends. Predators are everywhere. Blah blah. It's never about the risk from all the nice normal men you know.

Sorry rambling.

This messaging I think has multiple reasons.

1. Men do what men do. Nothing anyone can do about it. You are prey. Be wary at all times

1. It's a hangover from the property angle? Men you know, through work etc. You are in their 'group'? Or something. Not sure how to put it. Like when you're in the pub. Random men will approach if there's 5 girls talking closely. If there's one man there they won't. Men attacking women they know is seen completely differently to stranger attacks. Even though they are way more common.

1. Society does not want to face up to this. Putting the woman in the focus and looking at all the things she did wrong. Is easier.

1. For women this what did she do wrong thing is about. Well I would never do that so it won't happen to me. It comes from fear, usually. It's a self protection mechanism.

So the whole of society has a really awful messed up psychology about sex offences against women and girls.

Which fails to act on loads of things that are criminal and impact women and girls. And are known to be precursors to really serious crime. And then when it's serious the bloke is a monster and how could anyone know. meanwhile women and girls are taught from young that they need to be careful. Don't relax. Don't be spontaneous. Pay for cabs. If you have a bit to drink or god forbid take drugs or go home with some people you met or whatever. You are playing with fire. Don't go out after dark. Don't walk alone. Don't go jogging! That alleyway.. Go the long way. Let your guard down and it's on you. For what? So that society can judge you IF anything happens...

This advert was up about 12 feet high at the spot on the tube I preferred as I could maybe get a seat

Note: John warboys was active at the time.

What does it do to men and women and boys and girls having this sort of thing around the place?

What needs to happen.

Put the spotlight on the sex offender all the way through.

Stamp out even subtle victim blaming. Hints in news reports that she had broken the 'rules'.

The police to encourage reporting of all sex offences. Not have police types calling them low level etc on the news. Media guidelines to put spotlight on the crime. Not the victim. When there's a trial stop reporting the defence in massive headlines. Woman murdered by husband due to affairs/ money worries/ work stress etc. Esp when she's dead. He can say anything he likes. It should not be salaciously reported with massive headlines.

Database for sex offences. Many of the men who commit rape or serious sexual assault. Sexual attacks with extra violence on top. They have escalated and it's not s one off. A decent database (and interest from the police) would have got Ian Huntley, couzens and Libby's murderer well before they murdered. And would have spared other victims on their road to those crimes.

Amnesty to feed the database. All victims of sex crimes please report. Don't worry if it was years ago, no other witnesses. The idea that it's a waste of time if there's no chance of prosecution. I've got a name. Loads of women and girls have names. Before you even get to area description. Say the name I have, comes up 6 times. 6 women who don't know each other would have way more chance of a successful prosecution surely?

Do something about the handling in court. Things like a child who was 12 or 13 being cross examined by the barrister of each of the men accused. There were can't remember. 10 or something. She was cross examined for 3 days. A child. That sort of thing has to stop.
Maybe an inquisitorial court for offences of this type. It's a court system used in other countries. Maybe other options.

1. More understanding about the prevalence and the impact on girls especially. A recognition that when girls are 'out of control' or have mental health issues, including self harm. That having been a victim of some kind of sex offence/s, is often a cause. And one that needs to be acknowledged and explored. Other reactions include self harm behaviours that feed into a perception she's a mess- alcohol and or drug use/ abuse. Moody/ aggressive/ angry. Sexually 'promiscuous' (I hate that word). These reactions are common in adults as well.

1. Kill off the commonly held belief that girls post puberty are somehow sexually knowing temptresses. Who have a grown up understanding of sex and men. Who enjoy getting attention from random men, which they actively send 'messages' about with their appearance (having things like legs and hair and faces and breasts and bums which they can't do much about).

Sorry I'm going on.

*3.
Database for sex offences. Many of the men who commit rape or serious sexual assault. Sexual attacks with extra violence on top. They have escalated and it's not s one off. A decent database (and interest from the police) would have got Ian Huntley, couzens and Libby's murderer well before they murdered. And would have spared other victims on their road to those crimes.

Amnesty to feed the database. All victims of sex crimes please report. Don't worry if it was years ago, no other witnesses. The idea that it's a waste of time if there's no chance of prosecution. I've got a name. Loads of women and girls have names. Before you even get to area description. Say the name I have, comes up 6 times. 6 women who don't know each other would have way more chance of a successful prosecution surely?*

This already exists. Post Ian Huntley a database was created to enable forces to check other forces records.

You can report any crime, no matter how old or how little info. No amnesty is needed. It will (or should) be recorded as a crime.

So what we do need is to make people aware they can report these crimes. The police also need more funding- it’s no good having these databases if there are no skilled investigators to extract the data.

How are they missing all these serial escalating sex offenders?

Why did Reid and warboys happen?

The man who killed 3 gay men and police failed to link... Gay men I think have similar issues to women when it comes to sex offences.

The man who killed Libby squire?

The man who killed Sarah everard?

I think if I called and said I want to report a man who flashed at me on the tube 15 years ago they'd... Be wtf? I mean they were at the time so... (Only one I've reported and I did so because I was worried about escalating and the fact he chose a bit where hardly any people and long enough between stops for things to get nasty).

Cressida dick in an interview said. We are not interested in this sort of stuff. An ex officer said indecent exposure was not something the police would bother with, talking about Sarah everard.

I have zero confidence that if I called the police and said I'd like to report these dunno. 15 incidents I found most awful over the last 25 years. I mean. You say they would take a report for a database but...? Really?

They didn't come when I called 999 because a teenage girl was being beaten up down the road.

What you say sounds great but that's not how it works, in real life, is it.

@Charley50

If you want a high profile support of women's issues like the BLM will YOU put yourself on the line like they do? No - thought not.

Colin Kapernick has lost millions because he made a simple statement of fact - same for Muhammed Ali 50 years ago Coz racism & misogony never bloody ends.

People like you pit white resentment against BLM against women becoz men women like you think you have something to gain from it. But unless you're landed aristocracy or a multi-millionaire you're not the far up the totem pole no matter what you tell yourself.

When people like you say "what about BLM" in your fake innocent little voice its underhand racism and we know you ain't here to do squat for women... which is maybe your point.

Charlie''s post which I know pissed a lot of people off.

Her point was that through pressure, lobbying, individual action etc. That some activist groups get traction with the public, govt, etc etc.

I agree that it's not a competition.

I do not think the marches and outrage after the murder of floyd will bring about change. There's been so many murders over the years that have led to a global response but nothing changes does it. I remember Rodney king all those years ago. The riots. And what's changed? Round and round it goes.

@NiceGerbil You are not going on. You're very right and thank you!.

The other thing people can do from their arm chairs is start campaigning and complaining about the HUGE amount of TV drama involving murder against women and children.

Its like if it isn't supernatural than its some woman/child who's hacked or slashed. If anyone doesn't believe me then go online and give it a count. Almost every single drama is about this, not to mention thriller books.

THIS is how we teach society to attack women and children.

If everyone on here starts complaining to OFCOM about the next bloody woman/child how-to-murder/rape series that pops up from the BBC / ITV and the rest ... which will likely be in weeks ...then we can start to make a difference.

Can't be bothered? Then watch our rape and murder continue for another generation.

Anyway I think her point was supposed to be.

When it comes to the massive harm done to women and girls all over the planet every day.

When in this country there's rape, organised child sexual abuse rings, police uselessness meaning men they should have caught offend against more women and girls. Countrywide reports of sexual assault and rape of girls in schools being brushed under the carpet. And on and on.

Women's rights have always been. Disliked.. not popular? Not important. Definitely not something that there's ever a really widely backed concern about.

The vigil for Sarah everard the met went in all guns blazing. That was a statement from the met to women. And it was one of theirs who murdered her.

Colin Kaepernick's activism was brave and took guts and I really admire him.

Tommie Smith and John Carlos gave the black power salute in front of a global audience back in 68. Again. Brave amazing men.

Nothing changes though does it?

And women when we even try to shout about it. No one even notices. We get laughed at. It's boring.

Sorry that was long!

@nicegerbil ... respectfully.

Its clear things are changing racially although the road is undoubtably long and windy. Why do you think we're seeing this global white power backlash? Because white men and women see white entitlement eroding and they resent it.

As to the "what about BLM" comments - it pisses people off because it diminishes one group's suffering either intentionally or not. If she didn't 'mean' that then learn how to express themselves better because women can't afford to piss off black civil rights out of envy or jealousy.

Women need all the allies we can get, and to get support we have to give it.

Women gained most power in the late 60's-70's was when they took a leaf out of the civil rights campaign book AND were prepared to lose their life for political gain. Who speaks for women now? Who's our authentic voice? I couldn't tell you.

The honest truth is that for the last 30-40 years women have largely sat back and hoped someone else would do the work as they ride the coat tails of civil rights etc and that isn't a long term winning strategy.

This thing takes work and when even you - the firebrand on here - is saying "It's boring" then that is a good example of the mountains yet to climb.

jskei

That's a fine idea but won't do anything sadly. Not to say don't bother reporting but realistically what will it do?

Much of our TV and film consumption is from USA and via streaming services. Nothing to do with ofcom.

The media gives the people what they want. If it was not liked they wouldn't do it. I'd say it's a symptom not a cause.

You can get women being abused debased sexually dominated on any mainstream porn site at the click of a button.

And

Remember Mary Whitehouse?!

jskei

A lot of points in your post!

First I would take issue with this part-

'
Women gained most power in the late 60's-70's was when they took a leaf out of the civil rights campaign book AND were prepared to lose their life for political gain. '

Political gain is not quite the right term. Women fight for pretty fundamental stuff.

Since those years just a few examples.

Pussy riot's activism in Russia saw them imprisoned and treated God knows how

The feminist activists in Saudi who are in prison for driving even after that law was loosened up

Even stuff like girls going to school in certain areas of Afghanistan is a feminist act and risking death. Recently 85 dead and many more injured by a car bomb set for when they were leaving school

Plenty of other examples.

Were you focussing on certain countries? Because globally that's just not true. Women and girls are fighting and yes being killed for it.

The honest truth is that for the last 30-40 years women have largely sat back and hoped someone else would do the work as they ride the coat tails of civil rights etc and that isn't a long term winning strategy.

Only a person disconnected from feminism could think that's true.
In the last couple of years women have raised over a million pounds for various court cases to uphold women's rights, and been accused of accepting money from right wing sources as a result.