To think that the information we are getting about Wayne Couzens highlights how far men will go to protect other men?

[BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz]

I've always felt uncomfortable about Male judges issuing paltry sentences to Male sexual offenders, on the occasions it does happen.

And now it is emerging how disgusting WCs behaviour has been, knowingly, throughout his time in the police force.

Men (I'll add the old NAMALT here) protect and justify the actions of other men, in the main.

Is this because they themselves are depraved and guilty of similar thoughts or even actions? Or is it some sort of "brotherhood" thing? Could it be that they just want to keep the power they have as a group?

Feels like women are never going to win (and by win I mean, be treated as an equal).

MN - I have specifically put this in AIBU. I do not wish for this to be moved to Feminism.

also
Nope. Not having this. Cressida Dick is one of very very few women who reach this kind of position. I've never read or seen anything that makes me think she's dodgy in any way. It's pure misogyny to suggest she shouldn't have that job

bollocks. She got where she is due to... who knows because she is bloody dodgy. Maybe promoted up to get her out of the way?

Men ... protect and justify the actions of other men, in the main

And glory in them. My father and brother see women as the enemy, and are always joyous if something horrible happens to them, or if they can 'get one over on' a woman ie, con them, take advantage. And as I'm the woman they have most contact with...

Also, they 'turn a blind eye', like the good man who heard me express displeasure at men finding their way into women's spaces and sports, and said 'I tend to live and let live', as if I were being intolerant, and women aren't being erased.

@AnxiousAndUnraveling it’s shocking reading up about what PR was doing around hull before he was caught on cctv that finally linked him to poor Libby.
Really disgusting crimes. I’m really hoping Libby’s mum starts something that could really help flag up offenders and their behaviour and that it’s acted upon.

@BrozTito I thought they couldn’t link him to the semen sample because his dna wasn’t on the database until he got arrested? I think they arrested him about 5 days after Libby’s disappearance.
I’ve posted a link below about his list of crimes and it’s shocking to think he unfortunately was not caught and arrested with everything he did before the night he got Libby 😔

www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/libby-squire-murder-accused-pawel-4882281

@Brefugee my husband was genuinely shocked when I told him this. He grew up in a really small town-handful of pubs and one club and everyone knew each other. Not saying it didn’t happen where he lived but being anonymous to the other person definitely helped those men that took any opportunity to grab when I went out. Yuk.
I said to him if you ask most women that they’ve in one way or another being groped. We just don’t really say it.

Luckily hasn’t happened to me since those clubbing days, and I definitely live my life in a way to avoid walking by myself in the dark/all the usual precautions we women have to take.
I remember when Sarah everard went missing and when it was realised she was kidnapped hearing comments expressing surprise she was walking home alone at 9pm in the dark. The first comments should be how dare he kidnap her 🙁

Christ almighty that list of convictions!

The escalation is clear. He was doing it over and over, whatever punishments he got weren't doing anything.

Common sense would be this man is an increasing danger to women and girls and he's not stopping and so action needs to be taken before there are more victims.

I was surprised how fast they caught him. What fantastic police work! Turns out they knew exactly who he was, that he was very dangerous, and that he operated on and around the road Libby lived.

This is a clear example of the problem. This needs to stop. Something needs to be done within the law enforcement orgs to start taking 'low level' sex offenders off the street. To protect us. The low level stuff is not low level to the victims. Those crimes in themselves should be enough to mean action. To protect us.

@NiceGerbil I know, a shocking list and you can clearly the escalation and the risk taking.
The cctv of him following her is just so sad to see.

He was very, very brazen. Low level is such a shitty term used for these crimes. I’d be petrified if this happened to me. This is not low level.

I think getting him within five days was very very good work considering the amount of cctv they’d have had to watch etc

I read paul brittons jigsaw man years ago and a story stuck with me about a murder of a lady and her young daughter. The killer had started on the path to picking them as he used to spy on them through their windows.
I remember paul Britton writing to close curtains etc (can’t remember if that was after showering etc, it was a long time ago that I read it) but try and not give someone anything to look at as most offenders start with voyeurism, flashing etc
Not that people should have to but I understand that thought process. I live where people couldn’t see into pir house but still always close the curtains ready for after my shower!

No previous arrest but he was widely know of, including cctv. Most of those crimes where in the streets right next to him. Nothing significant done. I gather the Sun heard about the witnesses hearing her scream before police did. Infomation about what mums doing now about these lower level crimes here. www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/libby-squires-mum-takes-next-5630701

Decent article here aswell. www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/libby-squires-mums-battle-change-5617056

The older I get, the more I think the only way to change this is by a long and sustained campaign of violence against men. Once their lives are ruined by sexual violence on a totally random nature, maybe they’ll finally get it,

@NeedToKnow101

Gerbil, I'm glad you posted all of those messages, hadn't seen a lot of that before. It's shocking that he was able to join the police force

Women work, we pay taxes, we bring up the nation's children. But crimes against us are constantly overlooked or minimised. It's getting worse, not better.

Where is your post Gerbil?

People don't want to get involved, I was once waiting to cross the road and saw a man holding a woman by the wrist approaching. As they reached me I stepped between them and he lifted both hands to push me back and the woman escaped. He tried to go after her but I blocked him until she was out of site. He was very angry but since I was bigger than him he didn't try anything.

[quote Oilyoilyoilgob]@NiceGerbil I know, a shocking list and you can clearly the escalation and the risk taking.
The cctv of him following her is just so sad to see.

He was very, very brazen. Low level is such a shitty term used for these crimes. I’d be petrified if this happened to me. This is not low level.

I think getting him within five days was very very good work considering the amount of cctv they’d have had to watch etc

I read paul brittons jigsaw man years ago and a story stuck with me about a murder of a lady and her young daughter. The killer had started on the path to picking them as he used to spy on them through their windows.
I remember paul Britton writing to close curtains etc (can’t remember if that was after showering etc, it was a long time ago that I read it) but try and not give someone anything to look at as most offenders start with voyeurism, flashing etc
Not that people should have to but I understand that thought process. I live where people couldn’t see into pir house but still always close the curtains ready for after my shower![/quote]
Oh that sounds like the case of poor Samantha Bisset and her little DD. Jasmine I think?

I was posting about Rachel Nickell’ murder on the other WC thread. The same man killed all three of them.

Funnily enough Paul Britton made a right mess of those cases, failed to link them, and helped the Met frame Colin Stagg.

If the Met had been on the ball they’d have caught him earlier when he was “just” raping and hadn’t yet killed. They had his DNA. His mum reported him. They had descriptions and other clues. So much evidence available and so many opportunities lost.

All these beautiful women died because of substandard policing.

During the 1970s, a decade characterized by prevalence of Page 3, and Benny Hill type humour, conviction rates for rape were around 30%.
Nearly 50 years later, conviction rates are little over 1%. Rape has effectively been decriminalized.

Sitting with a group of friends recently and discussing this, none of the 5 of us felt we would even want to report a rape, since the chances of conviction were derisory.

@Sloth66

During the 1970s, a decade characterized by prevalence of Page 3, and Benny Hill type humour, conviction rates for rape were around 30%. Nearly 50 years later, conviction rates are little over 1%. Rape has effectively been decriminalized.

Sitting with a group of friends recently and discussing this, none of the 5 of us felt we would even want to report a rape, since the chances of conviction were derisory.

I know vigilantism is illegal, do you think "He asked for it" would be a good defence?. "She asked for it" seems to work.

@RickiTarr yes that’s the case. Absolutely awful and of course the Rachel nickell murder.

I didn’t know a huge amount about them or the Colin stagg and agreed on paul Britton adding to the mistaken identity and like you said opportunities lost. Especially his own mother reporting him. So many men in cases like this have people coming forward afterwards about them and it had just got ignored at the time.

Especially in the cases of flashing/masturbating in public/voyeurism, it seems very much brushed off.

I remember seeing a flasher in the park a couple of times when I was about 13, a distance away, and we just walked off but all of us never said anything to our parents. Looking back at the time it just felt like ‘he’s a weirdo’ and that was that. I think because we were in a group and he was a fair way away that it weirdly didn’t seem threatening. It’s only now as an adult I can see the proper danger of it 😕

The idea that women have to be careful not to do anything in their own home that might provoke a passing voyeur into rape or murder is just so profoundly depressing, and yet it's the way that women are forced into thinking. This is why women-only space is so important; not just spaces where women might be vulnerable, but spaces where we can just relax and be ourselves by not always having to think of ourselves in relation to the predator-class of human beings.

@jskei

Where are footballers taking the proverbial knee to protect women?

What the hell has the BLM demo got to do with women getting abused.?? This is far too serious to be playing one group off against the other.

Let's get this straight. There's racism AND there's misogyny and some women unfortunately get both. Imagine that!

In case you haven't figured it out its ALL hatred and until we start speaking up on BOTH these problems its not going to get much better for either groups.

Very well said.

@Sn0tnose

You can’t ruin a man’s career or his reputation just because he’s tried to have bit of a laugh with some uptight woman who can’t take a joke. And it is only women he’s done it to. It’s not like he’s made any men feel uncomfortable enough to report him. What does it matter?

And this is repeated up and down the country, in workplaces in every industry. Women don’t matter. It’s not sexual harassment; it’s women with no sense of humour, or feminists, or women with grudges who are using #Metoo to bring a good man down. It’s not sexual assault unless she’s hit over the head and dragged off by a stranger.

Brilliant post, very very sad that it’s so true

@AnxiousAndUnraveling

If people who get caught speeding have to go to a speed awareness course why is there not something similar for offenders who wouldn’t be given prison time? I know this is an incredibly simplistic way of looking at it and has its own issues but so much goes under the radar and isn’t dealt with at the start and it’s just not fair.

If speeding laws were enforced properly, no one would be able to drive and the economy would be fucked.

See also: ending lockdown.

@Thelnebriati

For me, its not just that he's been protected from the consequences of his actions; at the same time he was in an elite unit and was licensed to carry a firearm.

I've already cited one case where an innocent persons head was pureed by armed officers. Not really sure carrying a firearm means that much in the scale of things.

I usually lurk, read and learn on these threads but I agree that something needs to be done and I think the only way is a unified action that makes a change to politics/ law.

I’d love to write a well- researched, bullet proof letter which:

1. outlines a tranche of evidence that shows that these ‘isolated incidents’ which are ‘so unexpected’ actually show how perpetrators’ actions escalate.

2.) ‘demands’ (for want of a better word, but definitely not merely requests) stating that, to protect society, those low level crimes need to be addressed seriously. This needs to invite explanations of barriers to the police so that these can be overcome and no longer used as excuses: e.g; is it police culture? Is it funding? Is it the ability to database and share knowledge? Let’s solve that and get on with policing, then.

3.) some form of accountability. Maybe we could ask police to transparently submit / report on a database of exactly how many such crimes have been reported, and what action was taken. (Similar databases are available online - the databases for outcomes of violent crime are, predictably, a depressing read). And if we womenfolk could set up a website where anyone who has reported such a crime to the police could register the reported case, we could compare one with the other and be able see if any discrepancies. We couldn’t expect a 100% match, but any on the latter which is not on the former would inform whether police really are addressing all that are reported).

4.) an accompanying petition to ensure that this is addressed in the HoC, hopefully with enough numbers to convey the public feeling that these changes NEED to happen, and need to happen NOW.

I’d love to draft a letter and collate the research, if enough people think this could be effective? If so, I’d welcome any links to cases (such as those already cited on this thread) to make it impossible to rebut or ignore. I’ve never set up a petition but I think change.org invite suggestions?

Just my thoughts.

Great thoughts shula

So it's how.

What can we do.

Rather than like me and I'd imagine others. I'll get behind something if it's started..

We need to start it.

We have tried so many things... Lets start something

@Oilyoilyoilgob yes I frequently don't sleep well and love taking a walk at night, it gives me a sense of freedom.

I had an odd encounter with a man so have stopped that but feel a bit angry that it's been taken away from me - can't take the risk though. The world would be so different if women didn't have to be alert to threats

I was just talking to my son about the fact that whichever way the result goes this evening, there is likely to be rioting like in France after the World Cup and he said "but we don't riot here". And I said not since 2011, when police killed a black man.

And then I thought - maybe we need to riot too. The women of the UK need to rise up because Sarah Everard was killed by a serving police officer - but also in the name of all the other women killed by toxic males and insist that something is finally done. A vigil was considered to be "dangerous" - imagine how dangerous a riot would be!

I jest, in case someone comes and arrests me for inciting violence - but the double standards are absolutely revolting.