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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

999 replies

MissPrimaryCrafts · 09/07/2021 15:53

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
NiceGerbil · 10/07/2021 19:45

In fact that bit you quoted is 'problematic'.

You use women in a way that means you are not including transwomen.

OP you need to replace the word women in your OP. To something inoffensive. Like cervix owner, menstruator, people with ovaries or similar.

Hth.

Delphinium20 · 10/07/2021 19:50

And let me just comment briefly on the unbelievable racism in some of the comments who think women should open their spaces to men...my god.

I can't comment on UK ethnic/race crime rates, but I do know that Black women in my country are incarcerated at a rate far higher than white women, black men or white men. And a majority of them are in for non-violent offenses, like fraud or drugs (women overall only commit about 14% of violent crime, 2% sexual assault). White women get shorter sentences for the same crimes and there is evidence to show women offend at similar rates when controlled for state of residence, poverty, age, head of household and exposure to crime. Black women also face high rates of intimate partner violence, rape, and homicide (it's even higher for Native girls).

So looking at incarceration rates clearly shows racism AND sexism towards Black women plays a big role. It does NOT show that Black women have any greater propensity to crime than any other woman.

We can have a discussion on women, race, poverty and crime because we have a lot of data on it (see, I added it below). As this thread is about male crime and transwomen in female spaces, I'd LOVE to see some data on why allowing transwomen into female spaces is nothing to worry about.

Nobody seems to show us any.

www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/black-women-offenders-and-criminal-justice-some-theoretical
www.sentencingproject.org/publications/incarcerated-women-and-girls/

Helleofabore · 10/07/2021 19:51

Well over 1200 voters now and still a very, very solid majority.

So, OP. Have you read any of the posts?

Delphinium20 · 10/07/2021 19:52

Gawd, I should not have said 'briefly' and then write a long post Blush

TL;DR Don't use racist bs to compare women's rights for their own safe spaces. If you have data, show it.

Bewareofisms · 10/07/2021 20:08

I wonder how many people with these fears, e.g. at Brownie camp, actually know anyone who is trans? There seems to be a lot of fear without foundation. I worked with one 18yr old boy (in a school) who later identified as gender fluid and he is one of the kindest and gentlest people with children I've known.

I do see a clear problem with female sports though. Surely many trans woman would have a physical advantage over born women, muscle mass etc. Not sure what the answer would be here.

Perhaps we need to be more aware of how this situation could be used by old white men (always the true villains - talking to you Bo Jo) to twist women out of their rights.

WorcesterWombat · 10/07/2021 20:11

I’d also like to bring up that as a lesbian woman I now have dating sites where trans women do not have to identify themselves as such. As someone who has been sexually assaulted by men I do not wish to discover my date has a penis and my right has been taken away from me to freely ask that question without being called at TERF because apparently they are as much a woman as I am and therefore I should not need to know this when I date them.
I have friends who as trans ( both male and female) but the interesting thing is most of the f2m people are just getting on and living their lives, they aren’t trying to force their views and rights on others unlike the m2f people who tell me I have been renamed cis female or I am a womxn not a woman. They tell me how they feel they are female and so therefore they are. They have not been through female puberty, pregnancy, pregnancy loss or menopause and yet they can “mansplain” all these things to me.
As someone who has worked in women’s refugees and with women fleeing from domestic violence all I see are yet more men overriding women’s wishes and rights.
If you wish to transition then by all means seek the help to do so , but your transitioning should not make me less in order to make you more.

chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 20:12

@Bewareofisms

I wonder how many people with these fears, e.g. at Brownie camp, actually know anyone who is trans? There seems to be a lot of fear without foundation. I worked with one 18yr old boy (in a school) who later identified as gender fluid and he is one of the kindest and gentlest people with children I've known.

I do see a clear problem with female sports though. Surely many trans woman would have a physical advantage over born women, muscle mass etc. Not sure what the answer would be here.

Perhaps we need to be more aware of how this situation could be used by old white men (always the true villains - talking to you Bo Jo) to twist women out of their rights.

I hear what you are saying. I just really think that there are really good reasons that sex is a protected characteristic.

There are really good reasons gender transition is a protected characteristic too.

Safe spaces for both, equal, neither is superior. Then each group can receive tailored support.

Campervan69 · 10/07/2021 20:14

Safe spaces for both, equal, neither is superior. Then each group can receive tailored support

This is just so sensible and obviously the solution.

BernardBlackMissesLangCleg · 10/07/2021 20:15

old white men (always the true villains

god what fucking lazy thinking

sexist
racist
ageist

ding! ding! ding!

TalkingOutYerArse · 10/07/2021 20:21

@lightsoutminty

Funny how OP seems to have dropped the Bomb and left 🙄
Also funny how the child like TRAs who have swung by this evening have dropped the tone of the conversation massively too. Almost as if it's exactly what to expect from this lot isn't it? They need to up their game (cough intelligence).
Runningupthecurtains · 10/07/2021 20:24

I wonder how many people with these fears, e.g. at Brownie camp, actually know anyone who is trans? There seems to be a lot of fear without foundation. I worked with one 18yr old boy (in a school) who later identified as gender fluid and he is one of the kindest and gentlest people with children I've known
Even if every genuinely trans person is sweet and kind and gentle can you tell me how we tell them apart from predatory men looking to exploit the loop hole created to accommodate genuinely trans people?
Even if every single transwoman who enters a female changing room does so with pure, innocent motives can you not understand how seeing a penis that they have not specifically as to see can be traumatic for some women? Or frightening for some girls? Or culturally unacceptable to women from some backgrounds?

cricketmum84 · 10/07/2021 20:25

[quote NeedNewKnees]@cricketmum84 my gay son was also attacked in men's toilets (both at school and out in public) and is frightened of other males. It was as horrible for him as it will have been for your child. He, however, isn't demanding his female classmates budge up to accomodate his fear. He recognises that his presence would distress them.

Your child shouldn't be changing for PE with the girls, but when a separate (and very safe) accommodation is provided, yoiu object to that too. As your child presumably doesn't have enough transgender classmates to set up a 3rd (and possibly 4th?) separate trans changing room, what reasonable accomodation of their gender identity do you think they should have?

It is always heartbreaking to see our children in distres., I have experienced and and have great sympathy for you and your child.

But what do you want women and girls to do? Especially as you appear to reject a separate safe space.

Full disclosure - a young family member was seriously sexually assaulted by a MtF in a supposed single sex space and still has PTSD, so convincing me to drop safeguarding by sex is a non-starter. You can't tell the safe males from the unsafe.[/quote]
Fuck off. My daughter isn't demanding anything from her female classmates.

She needs a safe space where she doesn't feel threatened by males and she doesn't feel she is making females uncomfortable.

Down even dare suggest that she is demanding anything. She is one of the best and nicest people you could ever imagine to meet.

fulanigirl · 10/07/2021 20:27

@Rapskallion

Have you seen what’s going on in women’s prisons at the moment, OP? Or women’s sports? Or Girlguiding?

Would you be happy with your daughter losing her place in a sports team to a stronger, faster boy who identifies as a girl?
Are you happy to give up protected female places on company boards to men who identify as female? For male bodied people to win ‘women of the year’ awards?
Does it bother you that the NHS call you a chest feeder and that companies like the Body Shop call you a menstruator, because the word ‘woman’ supposedly offends and excludes now?
Does it concern you that lesbians are being called transphobic for not wanting to have sexual relationships with people with penises?
Or that children and young people who don’t conform to stereotypes are told that it could be because they were ‘born in the wrong body’?

This IS a women’s rights issue. It’s a safeguarding issue. And yes, it is about men using their strength, advantages and privilege, and some men using violence against women. How they identify doesn’t matter.

You said it all!! If anyone doesn't get this, they are will fully being ignorant.
FrippEnos · 10/07/2021 20:34

cricketmum84

She needs a safe space where she doesn't feel threatened by males

Yes she does, I can't see anyone saying that she doesn't

and she doesn't feel she is making females uncomfortable

But this just about how she feels, its about how others feel yet are not allowed to say because they will be called transphobic or pressured into acceptance by your daughters friends.

chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 20:35

@cricketmum84 has said repeatedly throughout this thread that she supports separate safe spaces for her daughter.

I'm sure she would equally not want a bunch of teenage girls around whilst changing. She deserves to be safe too, equally important but separate.

TotorosCatBus · 10/07/2021 20:38

I wonder how many people with these fears, e.g. at Brownie camp, actually know anyone who is trans? There seems to be a lot of fear without foundation. I worked with one 18yr old boy (in a school) who later identified as gender fluid and he is one of the kindest and gentlest people with children I've known

There are lots of nice men in the world but they aren't welcome in women's spaces. Women have good reason to fear men as a class and there's no knowing which ones should be avoided.

Lefthousewithpooinhair · 10/07/2021 20:39

Statistics, unfortunately do not always lead to a narrative of inclusivity.
Another example -
Women are (statistically) twice as likely to suffer from work related mental health issues.
An equally bigoted view (IMO), to the one of excluding trans women in male changing rooms, may be that if I were to undertake a psychologically stressful project at work, I would strive to include more men than trans men or women in the project.
Society, and to stress IMO rightly so, doesn’t tolerate using this statistic in that way. Partly because it might not be accurate (eg mental health is under reported in males) but mostly because it’s not actually fair to that group (in this case, women) to exploit this statistic in that way because it disadvantages them.

Rather than excluding the group, in this example society advocates ensuring measures are in in place SO THAT they can participate in this element of society. It may be ensuring we fund greater psychological support, or offer less hours to support.
It’s an argument of equality - treat everyone the same vrs equity - give everyone what they need to succeed.
If we know that trans women are struggling to integrate into society - why are we making it harder for them? Based on statistics, like the one of trans women committing crime that
a. Could be inaccurate (like the mental health one I have just used)
b. Fosters a narrative of segregation rather than integration.
I am probably presuming too much (rolls eyes) but the trans women I have spoken to just wish to integrate in the part of society they choose, and not attack women in changing rooms.

Anotheruser02 · 10/07/2021 20:41

[quote chickenyhead]@cricketmum84 has said repeatedly throughout this thread that she supports separate safe spaces for her daughter.

I'm sure she would equally not want a bunch of teenage girls around whilst changing. She deserves to be safe too, equally important but separate.[/quote]
No she said that her daughter using the disabled toilet to change made her stand out, and she just said that her daughter feels that other girls are not uncomfortable changing with her (which obviously no one would want to admit to if they were because....TERF)

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/07/2021 20:42

I can't comment on UK ethnic/race crime rates, but I do know that Black women in my country are incarcerated at a rate far higher than white women, black men or white men. And a majority of them are in for non-violent offenses, like fraud or drugs (women overall only commit about 14% of violent crime, 2% sexual assault). White women get shorter sentences for the same crimes and there is evidence to show women offend at similar rates when controlled for state of residence, poverty, age, head of household and exposure to crime. Black women also face high rates of intimate partner violence, rape, and homicide (it's even higher for Native girls).

So looking at incarceration rates clearly shows racism AND sexism towards Black women plays a big role. It does NOT show that Black women have any greater propensity to crime than any other woman.

Which means that black women in the US are going to be disproportionately affected by male rapists being placed in women's prisons.

And the same people rooting to put rapists in women's prisons have the cheek to chant Black Lives Matter.

extract

Headline: DOC employee reports men are claiming to be women to transfer prisons

A half dozen men have been transferred to theWashington Correctional Center for Woman, according to an employee at the facility.

The concern among staff and inmates is a risk of sexual assault. The employee cites a recent incident in which an inmate from a male facility raped a female in the women’s prison upon arrival. The transferred inmate, according to the employee, is incarcerated for a sex offense and has “fully functional male genitalia, a history of violence and sexual depravity in the community, and has been found guilty of sexual assault against other inmates while housed in the men’s facilities.”

“He is a proven sexual predator, having committed multiple crimes against women, yet the State of Washington had no problem moving him into a women’s facility and housing him with the most vulnerable in our population (our mental health unit),” the employee wrote.

“Word of the incident has inevitably traveled throughout the facility, causing much concern amongst both inmates and staff,” the employee said. “It demonstrated the state’s willingness to put the most vulnerable of our population in harm’s way, by locking them in a cell with a proven predator, with zero accountability or repercussions for the perpetrator.”

Among the inmates transferred to the women’s facility is Donna Perry, formerly known as Douglas Perry, who was convicted for killing three sex workers. Before being charged, Perryreportedly went to Thailandfor gender reassignment surgery. Prosecutors during the trial claimed that Perry had undergone the surgery to avoid suspicion for the killings.

Also recently transferred in was Hobby Bingham, now known as Princess Zoee Marie Andromeda Love, whowas convictedfor having sex with a 12-year-old girl. Bingham is alleged by the anonymous employee to have had sex with a female inmate at the women’s facility.

mynorthwest.com/2666243/doc-washington-correctional-center-women-men-transfer

chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 20:46

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

Statistics, unfortunately do not always lead to a narrative of inclusivity. Another example - Women are (statistically) twice as likely to suffer from work related mental health issues. An equally bigoted view (IMO), to the one of excluding trans women in male changing rooms, may be that if I were to undertake a psychologically stressful project at work, I would strive to include more men than trans men or women in the project. Society, and to stress IMO rightly so, doesn’t tolerate using this statistic in that way. Partly because it might not be accurate (eg mental health is under reported in males) but mostly because it’s not actually fair to that group (in this case, women) to exploit this statistic in that way because it disadvantages them.

Rather than excluding the group, in this example society advocates ensuring measures are in in place SO THAT they can participate in this element of society. It may be ensuring we fund greater psychological support, or offer less hours to support.
It’s an argument of equality - treat everyone the same vrs equity - give everyone what they need to succeed.
If we know that trans women are struggling to integrate into society - why are we making it harder for them? Based on statistics, like the one of trans women committing crime that
a. Could be inaccurate (like the mental health one I have just used)
b. Fosters a narrative of segregation rather than integration.
I am probably presuming too much (rolls eyes) but the trans women I have spoken to just wish to integrate in the part of society they choose, and not attack women in changing rooms.

Work is not a protected characteristic. Society as a whole can be inclusive, but there is reasons for the equality act and they are very good.

Transwomen are very vulnerable in society as a whole, as are women. Each is equally important, but separate.

Each deserves a safe space which does not overlap. Making woman by sex spaces, or male by sex spaces forcibly accommodate transgender people puts vulnerable groups at risk. Neither should be at risk, because they are equal.

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 10/07/2021 20:46

She needs a safe space where she doesn't feel threatened by males and she doesn't feel she is making females uncomfortable.

How can she possibly know whether she is making them uncomfortable or not? Even if they feel uncomfortable, this generation of teenage girls have been conditioned to think they're in the wrong to feel like that. #bekind at all costs, and the costs are to the safety and dignity of women.

Because it isn't just safety, it's dignity and comfort too. A remember on one thread a poster very movingly describing experiences she had of women miscarrying in public toilets and being supported by other women- males should not be in women's spaces for these kinds of reasons too.

I absolutely support your daughters right to feel safe as well but a third space is the only way to do this. Women's rights matter.

Delphinium20 · 10/07/2021 20:47

I wonder how many people with these fears, e.g. at Brownie camp, actually know anyone who is trans?

Yes. I do have a very close transwoman who I love and is a wonderful human being and who grew up partially in my care. I also have neighbors and colleagues who are just normal trans people in their own ways.

I also know many lovely nice men and boys who I trust. The transwomen and the men fall into the same category of the male sex and I don't think any of them belong in women and girls spaces despite how I personally know them to be safe.

Funnily, the older transwoman I'm neighbors with (who prefers transsexual as term cause he's about 60) thinks transwomen in women's sports is ridiculous. The younger transwoman who I love suffers a great deal of mental health issues including dysphoria, is in many ways a vulnerable adult who isn't doing very well despite the affirmation and hormone therapy. It's extremely painful to watch them suffer.

StardewMelons · 10/07/2021 20:47

Haven't had chance to read whole thread.. But I think people forget (or don't realise) that a lot of trans women (especially who transition from a young age), pass as women, and strangers would never know, you probably come across trans people in everyday life now and then and don't know, they are just trying to live happily as a woman, are they supposed to go and use the mens bathroom?

cricketmum84 · 10/07/2021 20:48

Sorry just to confirm.

What I meant to say was that my daughter doesn't want to use a female only space because she feels she is making females uncomfortable.

Sorry typo totally misconstrued what I was saying.

chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 20:48

@cricketmum84

Sorry just to confirm.

What I meant to say was that my daughter doesn't want to use a female only space because she feels she is making females uncomfortable.

Sorry typo totally misconstrued what I was saying.

It was really clear from your other posts.
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