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AIBU?

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Original poster

to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

999 replies

MissPrimaryCrafts · 09/07/2021 15:53

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
Bewareofisms · 10/07/2021 20:49

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

old white men (always the true villains

god what fucking lazy thinking

sexist
racist
ageist

ding! ding! ding!

It was tongue in cheek... 🤪
Bewareofisms · 10/07/2021 20:49

But that doesn't stop it often being true 🙃

334bu · 10/07/2021 20:50

She needs a safe space where she doesn't feel threatened by males and she doesn't feel she is making females uncomfortable.

Exactly why Stonewall and Trans Associations should be lobbying for third spaces instead of trying to remove women's rights to single sex spaces.

Biffbaff · 10/07/2021 20:50

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chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 20:51

@Anotheruser02 the part you quoted actually said her daughter was not comfortable.

Did you read it elsewhere?

chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 20:52

@Biffbaff

I use TERF as a unisex term for anti-trans bigots. No need for a "male equivalent" when the original does the job. If you happen to identify as female and feel offended by this term, that's on you. Hth.
How you use it is irrelevant. It is a well understood word and your meaning is clear.

Sexist and misogynistic.

chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 20:54

[quote chickenyhead]@Anotheruser02 the part you quoted actually said her daughter was not comfortable.

Did you read it elsewhere?[/quote]
Yeah, it was me!

Doh

Anotheruser02 · 10/07/2021 20:55

@cricketmum84

Sorry just to confirm.

What I meant to say was that my daughter doesn't want to use a female only space because she feels she is making females uncomfortable.

Sorry typo totally misconstrued what I was saying.

Ah sorry cricket, I quoted your mistake.
StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 10/07/2021 20:56

Apologies too cricket. I do hope that there's a solution for your daughter to feel comfortable. It must be very, very difficult.

Delphinium20 · 10/07/2021 20:57

Fosters a narrative of segregation rather than integration.
I am probably presuming too much (rolls eyes) but the trans women I have spoken to just wish to integrate in the part of society they choose, and not attack women in changing rooms

Using language from the historical civil rights movement for racial equality is a distortion of this issue, and I think is racist at its core. Transwomen into women's spaces is NOT the same thing as Black people's integration into white people's spaces.

Many people may wish to 'integrate' into the society they choose, but we don't allow this if it infringes on the rights of other vulnerable people. Just because 'they choose it' doesn't mean it's acceptable. You're asking a vulnerable class (women) to allow some members of the oppressive class (men) entry and that is a massive overriding of women's boundaries and protections.

Skybluepinkgiraffe · 10/07/2021 20:58

I think cricketmum's situation with her daughter illustrates perfectly the difficulties that we face in trying to make sure nobody is trampled in the rush to #bekind

TalkingOutYerArse · 10/07/2021 21:01

@Biffbaff

I use TERF as a unisex term for anti-trans bigots. No need for a "male equivalent" when the original does the job. If you happen to identify as female and feel offended by this term, that's on you. Hth.
Oooooh, you're well hard.
Bewareofisms · 10/07/2021 21:04

@Delphinium20

I wonder how many people with these fears, e.g. at Brownie camp, actually know anyone who is trans?

Yes. I do have a very close transwoman who I love and is a wonderful human being and who grew up partially in my care. I also have neighbors and colleagues who are just normal trans people in their own ways.

I also know many lovely nice men and boys who I trust. The transwomen and the men fall into the same category of the male sex and I don't think any of them belong in women and girls spaces despite how I personally know them to be safe.

Funnily, the older transwoman I'm neighbors with (who prefers transsexual as term cause he's about 60) thinks transwomen in women's sports is ridiculous. The younger transwoman who I love suffers a great deal of mental health issues including dysphoria, is in many ways a vulnerable adult who isn't doing very well despite the affirmation and hormone therapy. It's extremely painful to watch them suffer.

@Delphinium20

Do any of them want to be in female only spaces though? I feel there's an assumption here that they're fighting to get in that is not founded.

I am yet to see an arguement to support the trans women in women's sports thing. I'm with your neighbour on this unless someone can explain something I've missed here.

It is incredibly tough for any person in this situation and I hope the young woman you care about works through this time. No matter the affirmation it is incredibly hard for people in this position. I don't think people who are not can understand. My son (who's 10) was asking about this the other day as he had heard the word "trans" and the best way I could explain it to him was to imagine he woke up tomorrow in a girl's body, with everyone thinking & treating him like a girl. He thought about it and said he wouldn't like it and would feel uncomfortable. So - let's be kind to anyone with their own battle and help where we can 👍

Anotheruser02 · 10/07/2021 21:05

biffbaff Is it TERFy in your opinion to say that as everyone has different needs for protection that third spaces are an acceptable solution?

If women like and respect trans women, used their preferred names and want them to feel free to live how they want without wishing them any harm, but they also want born women to feel safe is that TERFy?

Biffbaff · 10/07/2021 21:05

This reply has been deleted

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DeRigueurMortis · 10/07/2021 21:08

@StardewMelons

Haven't had chance to read whole thread.. But I think people forget (or don't realise) that a lot of trans women (especially who transition from a young age), pass as women, and strangers would never know, you probably come across trans people in everyday life now and then and don't know, they are just trying to live happily as a woman, are they supposed to go and use the mens bathroom?

You do realise this an argument (re:passing) that many trans activists use to justify early medical intervention of children suffering from gender dysphoria?

Do you also know that the vast (over 80%) of children with GD who are supported through counselling and not medical intervention grow up to desist and accept their natal sex.

Of the children that don't and their outcomes well that's the thing. Nobody has thought to follow up their progress.

Yet we do have a vast amount of anecdotal evidence from de-transitioners about the irreversible physical and mental toll, decisions made in their often early teens has had on their well-being.

From lack of sexual function, sterility to unwanted cross sex attributes.

As discussed in the Bell/Tavistock judgement a child's ability to make decisions on pausing puberty and starting a pathway to lifelong medication that has serious long totem consequences is beyond their comprehension.

Passing as an adult is not the holy grail.

TalkingOutYerArse · 10/07/2021 21:08

@Biffbaff

I'm not understanding how TERF is sexist and misogynistic. However I do see that you people like to play "victims with vaginas" so, if you must.
Yada yada. Boff off Biff.
NiceGerbil · 10/07/2021 21:08

Trans exclusionary radical feminist...

You believe that anyone who has an issue with any one of the host of areas that were previously for female people.

Is a radical feminist?

Are you really sure about that?!

OlympicProcrastinator · 10/07/2021 21:09

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chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 21:09

@Biffbaff

I'm not understanding how TERF is sexist and misogynistic. However I do see that you people like to play "victims with vaginas" so, if you must.
I'm not a victim of you GrinGrin
Biffbaff · 10/07/2021 21:10

Yes @anotheruser02 I do think wanting separate spaces for trans people is TERFy. Because that imposes a restriction and an exclusion on the daily lives of trans people. I think the toilet thing is a straw"man" of an argument. It's not really about safety in toilets, is it? It's an expression of the limits on your inclusion and is therefore still exclusionary.

NiceGerbil · 10/07/2021 21:10

'However I do see that you people like to play "victims with vaginas" so, if you must'

What does this mean, please?

Playing... At what?

Are you saying those who are uncomfy with some of this are vagina people who are playing victim? Or is it about the use of people with vaginas, don't you agree with that language?

NiceGerbil · 10/07/2021 21:13

@Biffbaff

Yes *@anotheruser02* I do think wanting separate spaces for trans people is TERFy. Because that imposes a restriction and an exclusion on the daily lives of trans people. I think the toilet thing is a straw"man" of an argument. It's not really about safety in toilets, is it? It's an expression of the limits on your inclusion and is therefore still exclusionary.
No not really but it's part of it.

It's prisons, sports, communal changing for eg swimming clubs. Crime stats. The fight to have sex not asked on the census.

It's a large number of things.

MimiDaisy11 · 10/07/2021 21:13

@Biffbaff

I'm not understanding how TERF is sexist and misogynistic. However I do see that you people like to play "victims with vaginas" so, if you must.
Isn’t it only women who can be radical feminists? So it’s a term just for women. It’s like words like slut or bitch can be used to insult men but they’re still sexist due to the meaning and origin of the words.
TalkingOutYerArse · 10/07/2021 21:14

@Biffbaff

Yes *@anotheruser02* I do think wanting separate spaces for trans people is TERFy. Because that imposes a restriction and an exclusion on the daily lives of trans people. I think the toilet thing is a straw"man" of an argument. It's not really about safety in toilets, is it? It's an expression of the limits on your inclusion and is therefore still exclusionary.
Letting trans identified males with a penis into womens spaces also places restrictions on women and will exclude some women too.

Dilemma.

Still not our problem to solve.