to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

@Firstbornunicorn

I agree with you, OP. I think it needed to be said.

Also, the chances of you being assaulted by a woman in these spaces is surely much, much higher than by a man pretending to be a woman.

'Surely' based on what, exactly?

Have you got statistics suggesting that women routinely assault each other in same sex spaces?

It's also not just about safety, it's also about dignity and privacy, about women and girls not having precious opportunities curtailed, if they are required by faith, for example, not to be in the presence of people born male, for some activities, eg, swimming, sleeping overnight at a camp, or if they have suffered previous trauma that means that they really cannot deal with a person born male in certain situations, e.g. having a mammogram, a rape kit done. . .

How many women are assaulted by a female in a female only space

Their are very few cases of females attacking females especially when there is no personal involvement

Males attacking females they don’t know happens all the time every day every where t

I don’t feel uncomfortable around other females in female only spaces I certainly would are males being in this space as we know many from experiments the vast majority of violent offenders are male just because they present as female downs take away them being male

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

When you choose to discriminate against a person based on a characteristic they can’t control you are choosing to be prejudice. Just because ‘98% of crime is male’ doesn’t mean, IMO, that you should lump all trans people in that category. If that is the case, then you must advocate a ‘critical percentage’, when a statistic becomes justifiable grounds to discriminate to ‘protect all of the normals’. To me, sounds ludicrous. Just let everyone be who they want to be and express themselves how they want without having any preconceptions about them based on a characteristic they have no control over. If that means letting them identify as a women or a man, or whatever they want, IMO, as a society we should be encouraging this and welcoming people into spaces in society to help them integrate how they feel they best do.

Sure, as soon as gender identity is proven to be real, objectively identifiable and a characteristic that can't be controlled. But, if it could be, then nobody would be pushing for seld id.

Also, the chances of you being assaulted by a woman in these spaces is surely much, much higher than by a man pretending to be a woman.

Huh??

Men commit the majority of violent crime against women (and against men).
It is not possible to tell the difference between a transwoman and a man who says he is a transwoman.
Therefore any space where transwomen can go, men can go.
Allowing men into female spaces increases the risk of violence to women, because men commit the overwhelming majority of violent crime against women.

If you agree with letting transwomen into female spaces, is it because you disagree with part of the logic above, or because you think women are acceptable collateral damage?

Just because ‘98% of crime is male’ doesn’t mean, IMO, that you should lump all trans people in that category

Absolutely. Only the male trans people belong in that category that measures male crime rates. Transmen are not committing crime at the rate of the male population.

I have data-backed reasons (not a preconception) about men as a class and I don't want to welcome them into vulnerable female spaces because of this. Until you can prove how transwomen are different than men in their biology and criminal propensities, we can't allow them into women and girl-only spaces.

Avocadowoman, you're wasting your time. Every time anyone asks about collateral damage or how many assaults and rapes of girls and women are a reasonable price to pay to ensure everyone is kind to transwomen and validates them, it goes awfully quiet...

Are you Avocado Baby's mum?! I've always wanted to say I'm a huge fan!

@Firstbornunicorn

I agree with you, OP. I think it needed to be said.

Also, the chances of you being assaulted by a woman in these spaces is surely much, much higher than by a man pretending to be a woman.

Surely much higher.....really?

What makes you think this? Just a gut feeling? Something that's got any basis at all to give away women's rights to single sex spaces?

Some other things to consider.

If I was attacked by another woman I'd have a damn site better chance of defending myself against them and not incurring serious injury than if attacked by a man.

Cross sex hormones and surgery don't change a mans height, arm length or muscle mass - not that under stonewall's definition of Trans any changes medical or surgical are required.

My DH is the same height as me and I wouldn't stand a chance against him if he decided to lash out (not that he would).

It's also not "just" about being attacked in the toilets.

It's the premise that predatory men can gain access without challenge. For example to plant spy camera's or simply because they get off on making women feel vulnerable.

They just need to say they are Trans. It's free pass.

@Biffbaff

I think there should be a separate bathroom for TERFs. Simple.

TERFs are welcome in the women's sape spaces if they are women by sex.

Could we lay off the misogynistic slurs for women you don't agree with please?

I think there should be a separate bathroom for TERFs. Simple

Oh what a well thought out, intelligent argument with a silly little slur to shut women up thrown in for good measure.

While we are here, take note there is no equivalent slur for men despite the fact men are even less likely to support transwomen than women are. The misogyny is flagrant.

@Biffbaff

I think there should be a separate bathroom for TERFs. Simple.

There already is.

On the door it's marked "Women" or "Female".

Correct me if I’m wrong but on average one woman is murdered every three days in the U.K. Most of these women will have been murdered by men. Allowing men into women’s single sex spaces and eroding safeguarding is happening despite this.

Rape figures are high, convictions are low, sexual assault is occurring in schools on a huge scale. Men are allowed into women’s prisons and taking women’s places on prize lists (look at this year’s Women’s Prize for Fiction long list - a woman will have lost her place on that list). Men are qualifying for women’s places in the Olympics (Laurel Hubbard is the most high profile).

Women are pillioried, abused, and threatened with legal action for stating that sex is binary and immutable, and for asking questions about safeguarding for women and children.

And people are still arguing that women’s rights are NOT under attack?

Funny how OP seems to have dropped the Bomb and left 🙄

@lightsoutminty

Funny how OP seems to have dropped the Bomb and left 🙄

I think this thread is doing the rounds

🤣🤣🤣

To be honest whatever you want to call me, I'm fine with having my own bathroom I'll sit there smoke my cigarette, sip my gin and laugh at all the peoples who think "feelings" are facts

OP you haven't been back.

Any thoughts on what's been said? It's a long thread so I imagine you're catching up reading all the posts.

@honeyytoast

I completely agree with you. Obviously sex based oppression is real and needs to be dismantled - biological women are oppressed in a way that non bio women are not. However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

This all of this.

@YouSetTheTone

Correct me if I’m wrong but on average one woman is murdered every three days in the U.K. Most of these women will have been murdered by men. Allowing men into women’s single sex spaces and eroding safeguarding is happening despite this.

Rape figures are high, convictions are low, sexual assault is occurring in schools on a huge scale. Men are allowed into women’s prisons and taking women’s places on prize lists (look at this year’s Women’s Prize for Fiction long list - a woman will have lost her place on that list). Men are qualifying for women’s places in the Olympics (Laurel Hubbard is the most high profile).

Women are pillioried, abused, and threatened with legal action for stating that sex is binary and immutable, and for asking questions about safeguarding for women and children.

And people are still arguing that women’s rights are NOT under attack?

I believe you are wrong when you say most are murdered by men. Every three days a woman in the UK is murdered at the hands of a man, all of them. Women perpetrators are rare, but they are not included in that number.

Why aren’t transmembrane exposing their ‘manginas’ in men’s changing rooms?

Why is it only women who are being called Terfs, Bigots and are losing their jobs, friends and even their collective name? It’s because society still burns witches, they’ve just upgraded their fire.

‘Trans men’ bloody autocorrect

It’s because society still burns witches, they’ve just upgraded their fire.

Ooooh, this would be great on a t-shirt!

You failed at "I just don't see how women are losing their rights".
Or rather, with that sentence, every MRA won. Congratulations on helping to dismantle the female class.
If you can't look around you, around the world, can't be bothered to peek over your privilege and see what women have to fight every single day, just for you to live in a semblance of safety, if you're not going to even put in that effort, then the rest is pointless.
While some post op trans women might be harmless, there is no way to shut the door on what will follow behind them. Third spaces are what we need. And we need our language back. To be united again.