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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

999 replies

MissPrimaryCrafts · 09/07/2021 15:53

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
AnyOldPrion · 10/07/2021 17:38

My cause is to protect women's spaces, and if that means supporting transwomen in getting their own safe spaces, I would.

I think the vast majority of the general population would have had no objection to this, and many women would have readily supported it.

Trans-rights organisations are awash with money. Had they spent it creating such spaces, I believe most people would have had no objections whatsoever.

They didn’t. They have spent millions of pounds and dollars insisting that men are women and must have women’s rights and access to all women’s spaces. They have set up lobbying groups that are funded by governments to tell the same government that funded them to give women’s rights to men.

They have deliberately set about undermining women’s rights under the radar as they recognize that what they are demanding will not be popular. The techniques they use are outlined in this document:

www.rollonfriday.com/news-content/dentons-campaigns-kids-switch-gender-without-parental-approval

Women have been objecting to this regime from as soon as they realised what was happening, but by the time most women became aware, we were already in the deeply compromised situation where there was already a law that allowed men to be legally recognised as women. The law was created in 2004, very quietly and was acknowledged at the time to have an impact on women’s rights. It was successfully argued that this negative impact would be minimal as there would only be around 5000 people using the GRA to change their legal sex. Since then, Stonewall et al have been busily widening the definition of who is trans and thus should enter opposite sex spaces.

As I said before, most of us woke up to find our rights already seriously compromised. Not only do men have legal access to women’s spaces already, but Stonewall have such astonishing reach that their policy of outlining the law as they want it (self-ID) rather than the law as it is has further compromised women’s rights as so many organisations believe that providing single-sex anything is illegal, when that is not the case.

Having found ourselves in this situation, many of us have had a great deal of difficulty coming to terms with where we already are right now. Women who object are in a deeply compromised position, with the power of police forces, the college of policing, the bench book used by the judiciary and many other powerful organisations ranged against us.

Many of us have concluded that third spaces are likely the best alternative and so we have stated that wherever possible, only to be told we are bigots and equivalent to white people arguing for racial segregation.

And now, @chickenyhead you are here shouting at us that we should be doing something. Believe me, many of us have tried. But we are ranged against Stonewall, against almost all political parties, and against the other bodies mentioned above who are all insisting that men are women and must have women’s rights and that there can be no debate.

If you want separate space, then start a campaign. Maybe it’s as simple as you think and those of us who’ve been here for years haven’t tried hard enough. You mentioned a petition from 2018. Where were you then? Did you sign it? This was still much more obscure in 2018 and most petitions have a set time before they are rendered inactive.

So go ahead. Make those organisations listen. Stop the thundering juggernaut with your helpful suggestion. Or maybe you can stay and listen a while before you judge the weary women who have endured years of name-calling and threats for not being polite enough for your liking.

Waitwhat23 · 10/07/2021 17:43

@AnyOldPrion beautifully put

CityMumma78 · 10/07/2021 17:45

I don’t care what a person identifies as but if they have a penis they should not be allowed in female / women / girls -
Toilets
Changing rooms
Competitive sports
Prisons
Refuges

I, my daughter, my mother and sister should all feel safe in female / women / girls only spaces.

Women’s rights are being eroded by increasingly vocal trans activists! Examples over the last few years are the word mother doesn’t apply in maternity wards, the word woman cannot be used in menstrual product advertising, in the Olympic Games this year a biological male is allowed to compete in the female category, women are being assaulted by trans in prisons and the term lesbian should only be applicable to women not people identifying as women with a penis ffs!!
The world has gone mad!!!

Lefthousewithpooinhair · 10/07/2021 17:48

@DrSbaitso

If you look at the race related crime statistics you will also find that more people of BAME arrested in and around London. Does that mean that we should be ‘wary’ or ‘suspicious’ of ALL BAME people!? Should we not afford these people a safe space with everyone else ‘just in case’ one of them might commit a crime? Of course not? It’s horrendously discriminatory! Just because someone fits the demographic for a group doesn’t mean they should be treated at a disadvantage, they should be given the same opportunity and freedoms everyone else.

The prevalence of men as perpetrators of violent or sexualised crime compared to women is comprehensively more overwhelming than BAME men specifically compared to white men.

Furthermore, the biology of men is far more comprehensively different to women that of BAME men to white men, and in a way that is highly significant with regards to sex or violent crimes.

Furthermore, we can differentiate very clearly between the two sex classes (yes, we can. Yes, even people with differences of sexual development, who seem to be really sick of being dragged into this as some kind of trans "gotcha". No, the existence of clownfish does not stop humans from being a dimorphic species.) in a way we cannot with race. Would you think Archie Mountbatten-Windsor was part black just to look at him?

Nice try, but your attempt to exploit racism to claim women don't need protection is as transparent as it is risible.

Are you likening trans people to ‘clownfish’? They are just as human, as everyone else!!! They just don’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth? They arnt a different species.
FuzzyPenguin · 10/07/2021 17:48

Agree @AnyOldPrion sums it up perfectly

DrSbaitso · 10/07/2021 17:52

Are you likening trans people to ‘clownfish’? They are just as human, as everyone else!!! They just don’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth? They arnt a different species.

I don't think I can have a conversation with someone this wilfully obtuse and ignorant.

The entire point was that humans are NOT clownfish. If you want to know who does think trans people are like fish, look at the part of the TRA lobby that uses clownfish to claim that sex in humans is also changeable or somehow indefinable.

Your attempt to exploit racism to claim a "gotcha" is just as risible as the idea that trans people, or any humans, are like clownfish. Whether it's more offensive or not, I'm unsure.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 10/07/2021 17:53

Are BAME citizens responsible for 98% of sex crimes or 93% of murders?
Nope. Males are.

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 10/07/2021 17:54

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

Are BAME citizens responsible for 98% of sex crimes or 93% of murders? Nope. Males are.
Sorry, this was in response to that racist post about BAME people being responsible for more crime than white people.
BatmansBat · 10/07/2021 17:56

Do we have racist posts here? Could someone please report that? Sorry, I had a quick look and couldn’t find it.

NewlyGranny · 10/07/2021 17:56

Leftthehouse, the clownfish argument originates with the trans-activists! As I'm sure you know full well. 🤨

Waitwhat23 · 10/07/2021 17:56

Oh, I can just see the Twitter outrage now - 'Mumsnet bigots are saying that transpeople are not even the same species as humans!!'

For the benefit of anyone who is unaware of the clownfish scenario- no, that is not what is being said. The fact that Clownfish can change sex is given as 'evidence' that humans can/could also change sex. They can't. Humans are a dimorphic species. The existence of people with differences in sexual development (DSD) is not evidence that humans can change sex.

Anotheruser02 · 10/07/2021 17:56

Are you likening trans people to ‘clownfish’?
They are just as human, as everyone else!!! They just don’t identify with the gender they were assigned at birth? They arnt a different species.

Straw man shite. You know they aren't.

DeRigueurMortis · 10/07/2021 18:02

@OlympicProcrastinator

*Look at the crime statistics If you look at the race related crime statistics you will also find that more people of BAME arrested in and around London*

No you fuckwit because there is nothing inherent in my biology that makes me more violent or criminal because of my skin colour and the higher crime stats have got a hell of a lot more to do with racism, prejudice and economic disadvantage because of it. Don’t bring our suffering into your shitty argument like some ‘gotcha’ moment.

We are not more violent than white people. There is nothing in the melanin in my skin that makes me or other like me more likely to cause crime. Segregation by skin colour causes higher crime.

Let me be crystal clear, that is in NO WAY COMPARABLE to sex based violence and it’s fucking offensive to suggest otherwise.

👏👏👏

DrSbaitso · 10/07/2021 18:05

My exact line was "No, the existence of clownfish does not stop humans from being a dimorphic species." It could not be any clearer that I'm pointing out that clownfish are not humans. And I'm doing it because it's not uncommon for TRAs to say that human sex doesn't exist because clownfish.

Fuck's sake. I know I shouldn't be surprised by the utter guff that comes from people who swear that men are women and melanin is like a penis, but I can't help it. How have these people not been eaten yet?

Abhannmor · 10/07/2021 18:16

I'm not sure whether you are being unreasonable or just disingenuous tbh. Of course having intact males in a women's toilet 🚻or changing room is a problem. All men know this and I am a man btw. Not a cis man because they don't exist. Having a third option for the 0.1% shouldn't be rocket science. But that would defeat the purpose of this little game wouldn't it?

ifIwerenotanandroid · 10/07/2021 18:16

My cause is to protect women's spaces, and if that means supporting transwomen in getting their own safe spaces, I would.

I think the vast majority of the general population would have had no objection to this, and many women would have readily supported it.

Trans-rights organisations are awash with money. Had they spent it creating such spaces, I believe most people would have had no objections whatsoever.

They didn’t. They have spent millions of pounds and dollars insisting that men are women and must have women’s rights and access to all women’s spaces. They have set up lobbying groups that are funded by governments to tell the same government that funded them to give women’s rights to men.

They have deliberately set about undermining women’s rights under the radar as they recognize that what they are demanding will not be popular.


I'd genuinely like to know why no trans-specific facilities seem to have been set up, when according to claims made in support of trans ideology, trans people have been around forever, trans people won LGB rights & trans people won women their rights, too. (I've seen all these claims made repeatedly.)

If these claims are all true, then why didn't trans people use this power & political nous to set up their own facilties or get someone else to set up facilities for them? Surely that's what a powerful group of people who care about other groups' rights would do? It would look after its own people without stepping on any other groups' toes. So by now it would have caused third spaces to exist for toilets, hospital wards, dv refuges, sexual assault referral centres, etc, for the exclusive use of its own members, to keep them safe & ensure their dignity & privacy while providing them with expert advice & healthcare. To me, that would be an excellent outcome. AFAIK this hasn't happened & instead we see attempts to infringe other groups' rights & take away what they have worked to provide for themselves. To me, that seems both wrong & inexplicable.

Lefthousewithpooinhair · 10/07/2021 18:54

When you choose to discriminate against a person based on a characteristic they can’t control you are choosing to be prejudice.
Just because ‘98% of crime is male’ doesn’t mean, IMO, that you should lump all trans people in that category.
If that is the case, then you must advocate a ‘critical percentage’, when a statistic becomes justifiable grounds to discriminate to ‘protect all of the normals’. To me, sounds ludicrous.
Just let everyone be who they want to be and express themselves how they want without having any preconceptions about them based on a characteristic they have no control over.
If that means letting them identify as a women or a man, or whatever they want, IMO, as a society we should be encouraging this and welcoming people into spaces in society to help them integrate how they feel they best do.

chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 18:57

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

When you choose to discriminate against a person based on a characteristic they can’t control you are choosing to be prejudice. Just because ‘98% of crime is male’ doesn’t mean, IMO, that you should lump all trans people in that category. If that is the case, then you must advocate a ‘critical percentage’, when a statistic becomes justifiable grounds to discriminate to ‘protect all of the normals’. To me, sounds ludicrous. Just let everyone be who they want to be and express themselves how they want without having any preconceptions about them based on a characteristic they have no control over. If that means letting them identify as a women or a man, or whatever they want, IMO, as a society we should be encouraging this and welcoming people into spaces in society to help them integrate how they feel they best do.
Transwomen are entitled to their own safe spaces as a protected characteristic group. They should not be considered more important than women by sex, which is also a protected characteristic.

Neither is more important, both are equal but separate.

I think you would benefit from RTFT

AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken · 10/07/2021 18:57

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

When you choose to discriminate against a person based on a characteristic they can’t control you are choosing to be prejudice. Just because ‘98% of crime is male’ doesn’t mean, IMO, that you should lump all trans people in that category. If that is the case, then you must advocate a ‘critical percentage’, when a statistic becomes justifiable grounds to discriminate to ‘protect all of the normals’. To me, sounds ludicrous. Just let everyone be who they want to be and express themselves how they want without having any preconceptions about them based on a characteristic they have no control over. If that means letting them identify as a women or a man, or whatever they want, IMO, as a society we should be encouraging this and welcoming people into spaces in society to help them integrate how they feel they best do.
No one wants to stop them wearing what they want, calling themselves what they want, getting access to health care, gaining employment etc. Women want to have female only spaces for times they feel vulnerable to males, which is a statistically legitimate fear.
claralara42 · 10/07/2021 18:59

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

When you choose to discriminate against a person based on a characteristic they can’t control you are choosing to be prejudice. Just because ‘98% of crime is male’ doesn’t mean, IMO, that you should lump all trans people in that category. If that is the case, then you must advocate a ‘critical percentage’, when a statistic becomes justifiable grounds to discriminate to ‘protect all of the normals’. To me, sounds ludicrous. Just let everyone be who they want to be and express themselves how they want without having any preconceptions about them based on a characteristic they have no control over. If that means letting them identify as a women or a man, or whatever they want, IMO, as a society we should be encouraging this and welcoming people into spaces in society to help them integrate how they feel they best do.
This is so unbearably naive, it would be sweet it if wasn't so dangerous.

So little critical thinking, so much opinion. Sad.

Firstbornunicorn · 10/07/2021 19:01

I agree with you, OP. I think it needed to be said.

Also, the chances of you being assaulted by a woman in these spaces is surely much, much higher than by a man pretending to be a woman.

claralara42 · 10/07/2021 19:02

@Firstbornunicorn

I agree with you, OP. I think it needed to be said.

Also, the chances of you being assaulted by a woman in these spaces is surely much, much higher than by a man pretending to be a woman.

Another one. "I know nothing about this but I agree with you cos the feels".
chickenyhead · 10/07/2021 19:03

@Firstbornunicorn

I agree with you, OP. I think it needed to be said.

Also, the chances of you being assaulted by a woman in these spaces is surely much, much higher than by a man pretending to be a woman.

Transwomen and women are both at risk from males by sex. They have equal but separate vulnerabilities.

Neither is more important.

Women and Transwomen deserve to be safe.

Anotheruser02 · 10/07/2021 19:03

If that means letting them identify as a women or a man, or whatever they want, IMO, as a society we should be encouraging this and welcoming people into spaces in society to help them integrate how they feel they best do.

That undermines safeguarding.

That undermines the recovery of women with trauma from abuse at the hands of men.
That makes those space not an option for women with certain cultural beliefs.

TheDinosaurMum · 10/07/2021 19:04

@Firstbornunicorn

I agree with you, OP. I think it needed to be said.

Also, the chances of you being assaulted by a woman in these spaces is surely much, much higher than by a man pretending to be a woman.

But it's not statistically your chance of being violently assaulted by another woman is significantly less than being assaulted by a male 🤦🏻‍♀️

Why can't people just look at statistics, I mean I know maths in school was "boring" but statistics are pretty steadfast and accurate 🤦🏻‍♀️

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