to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

If trans women are too scared to share spaces with males, why don't they understand that women are also? They should be fighting for their own spaces, not stealing (because that's what it is) from women.
It's not bigoted to have boundaries, standing up for yourself isn't 'actual violence', you're not killing people by saying no.

Didn't realise they'd been removed, I wonder how the electoral officials established they were fake? It sounds like in this particular case you had to be of Zapotec ethnicity. Apart from that, the phrase 'consistently identified as transgender' still begs questions about 'consistent' and 'identify'...sounds like a bit more forward-planning will just be needed until such time as the hateful transphobic denial of the recently-transitioned is overthrown?

The same thing happened again this year but slightly different circumstances and it was accepted. I'll try and find the info.

@Peppallama

I still can't understand why anyone needs third spaces. We just need men to be inclusive of feminine presenting men!

It's not about men being accepting. That isn't the issue.

My daughter is terrified of entering a male toilet. She is scared of men. Even though she is biologically male herself.

So they can put out of context screenshots on twitter where men love to castigate women in MN as being TERFS/Nazis/farright/slags/prudes/bigots and what have you - women who won't know their place basically. Just type Mumsnet into twitter to see some of it, although much if it you won't see now as the idiots have put themselves behind protected tweets and blocked most female posters so it's all just a silly echo chamber that only they can read anyway

[quote Skybluepinkgiraffe]@cricketmum84 I'm sorry, yes the difficult bit i was sympathising with was the difficulties your daughter faces, and for you in trying to protect her.

I suppose my concern is that women are being cancelled, doxxed and receiving death threats for wanting to discuss it.
Meanwhile, real aggression and bullying of kids like yours is getting missed. I doubt anyone on this thread wants a child/young person bullied for the way they present. Hell, we don't want anybody being bullied. For any reason.
But these things can only be sorted by discussion, not by TRAs silencing us.
It's very sad.[/quote]
Thank you ❤️

I found this but I'm sure it was in a UK paper.

dailycaller.com/2021/05/26/force-for-mexico-elections-trans-women-quota/

YABU OP.

Women's sex based rights are indeed being eroded.

@DdraigGoch

Imagine being in a prison with a female face and body with breasts with hundreds of males. This has happened before and is a lot more dangerous than having 1 or 2 transgender people in a women’s prison. *@toocold54* male violence is not women's problem to solve. If transwomen are not safe in the male estate, then a third space needs to be found.

Do people think hetrosexual straight men can't figure out a transexual women?

Look many are far from the plastic surgery look, many just don't look like women. Whilst acts of homosexuality goes on in the prison estate between homosexual males.

Most hetrosexual males on a 6 month sentence for domestic burglary or possession of a controlled substance don't suddenly decide they are attracted to Stacey the transexual. Trust me.

I think it's time men and women stopped expecting women to solve men's problems for them. That includes taking the lazy way out of the current impasse, by thinking, 'oh well, transwomen will just move into women's spaces, and women will just have to lump it'.

YY. If women were considered at all this wouldn't even be an option.

My daughter is terrified of entering a male toilet. She is scared of men. Even though she is biologically male herself.

But what changes for her if we make female spaces mixed gender? It would admit your child, but also any other men that either feel they are female or that want to access female spaces. So you DC is still afraid. Only now so is my 78 year DM and my 14 year old Dniece and me. The problem isn't solved it's increased.

To sign a petition ? Yeah right.

If that's all you mean, I think I have signed it already. If that's all you mean that's fine, I'll do that.

My daughter is terrified of entering a male toilet. She is scared of men. Even though she is biologically male herself.

I understand that. Women are often scared of it too.

Does she feel the same way about toilets for trans women?

My son (born and living as a male) son is also afraid to use men's toilets. He has long hair and is often mistaken for being trans. He's been called a transgender bitch and told to get out. He's had homophobic slurs directed at him too. Apparently having long hair means he's gay.

However the solution to that isn't to allow him to use the women's toilets. Because he is male.

I signed that petition 3 years ago. Totally on board.

But my focus is women's rights.

I'm not going to get in the way of reasonable trans people campaigning for third spaces, obviously, with 'em all the way!

But it's still not my fight...it needs to be something more trans campaigners are leading on, with women cheering from the back. Because it's got to have widespread trans support to get anywhere.

So long as the most vocal transactivist voices are demanding access to female spaces for male spaces, my energies will be mostly going into the pushback.

If your house is on fire, you're probably a bit too busy to help your neighbour build an extension, basically.

@CiaoForNiao

My son (born and living as a male) son is also afraid to use men's toilets. He has long hair and is often mistaken for being trans. He's been called a transgender bitch and told to get out. He's had homophobic slurs directed at him too. Apparently having long hair means he's gay.

However the solution to that isn't to allow him to use the women's toilets. Because he is male.

Perfect example of how this ideology does nothing but reinforce ridiculous gender stereotypes. Why would anyone think it's strange for a man to have long hair?!

@cricketmum84 my gay son was also attacked in men's toilets (both at school and out in public) and is frightened of other males. It was as horrible for him as it will have been for your child. He, however, isn't demanding his female classmates budge up to accomodate his fear. He recognises that his presence would distress them.

Your child shouldn't be changing for PE with the girls, but when a separate (and very safe) accommodation is provided, yoiu object to that too. As your child presumably doesn't have enough transgender classmates to set up a 3rd (and possibly 4th?) separate trans changing room, what reasonable accomodation of their gender identity do you think they should have?

It is always heartbreaking to see our children in distres., I have experienced and and have great sympathy for you and your child.

But what do you want women and girls to do? Especially as you appear to reject a separate safe space.

Full disclosure - a young family member was seriously sexually assaulted by a MtF in a supposed single sex space and still has PTSD, so convincing me to drop safeguarding by sex is a non-starter. You can't tell the safe males from the unsafe.

Perfect example of how this ideology does nothing but reinforce ridiculous gender stereotypes. Why would anyone think it's strange for a man to have long hair?!

Exactly. And a few years ago I doubt anyone would have batted an eyelid. Mind you the masks don't help. You can't see his beard/top lip hairs which are starting to grow!

You can't tell the safe males from the unsafe.

You can't tell safe penis's from unsafe penis's, so banning all penis's from a space is the only way to go.

Perfect example of how this ideology does nothing but reinforce ridiculous gender stereotypes. Why would anyone think it's strange for a man to have long hair?!

I might have used this comparison earlier on this (lengthening) thread: if so, apologies for the repetition. But Princess Charlene of Monaco is another case in point. She sported a half-shaved haircut. Not only was this out of line for a 'Princess', whatever that silly social construct means, but the conclusion of the internet vox pop was that a) she was about to come out as either a trans man or non-binary or that b) she was about to come out as a butch lesbian.

It's a haircut. She's female. To be a lesbian does not require being 'butch'.

This is the illogical conclusion of where this silly, tired 'gender' stereotyping leads. I'd felt we were making progress away from this until as recently as about 5-6 years ago. How can we possibly now be travelling at 1000mph backward into this regressive nonsense?

@334bu

*However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!*

Nobody thinks transwomen are more likely to be opportunistic sexual predators than any other male. However, according to crime statistics and other studies, neither are they less likely to be such predators. Therefore, they like all other males, no matter how nice, have no place in women's single sex areas.

That’s precisely the argument many protectors of female spaces use: Look at the crime statistics If you look at the race related crime statistics you will also find that more people of BAME arrested in and around London. Does that mean that we should be ‘wary’ or ‘suspicious’ of ALL BAME people!? Should we not afford these people a safe space with everyone else ‘just in case’ one of them might commit a crime? Of course not? It’s horrendously discriminatory! Just because someone fits the demographic for a group doesn’t mean they should be treated at a disadvantage, they should be given the same opportunity and freedoms everyone else.

Lefthousewithpooinhair so racist. You people do this all the time. Stop with the racism ffs.

Someone put it very well on another thread, to remove a safeguard you must first prove that the safeguard isn't necessary any more.

Male violence against women hasn't changed since it was deemed that we needed those spaces, if anything it may have gotten worse.

If you look at the race related crime statistics you will also find that more people of BAME arrested in and around London. Does that mean that we should be ‘wary’ or ‘suspicious’ of ALL BAME people!? Should we not afford these people a safe space with everyone else ‘just in case’ one of them might commit a crime? Of course not? It’s horrendously discriminatory! Just because someone fits the demographic for a group doesn’t mean they should be treated at a disadvantage, they should be given the same opportunity and freedoms everyone else.

The prevalence of men as perpetrators of violent or sexualised crime compared to women is comprehensively more overwhelming than BAME men specifically compared to white men.

Furthermore, the biology of men is far more comprehensively different to women that of BAME men to white men, and in a way that is highly significant with regards to sex or violent crimes.

Furthermore, we can differentiate very clearly between the two sex classes (yes, we can. Yes, even people with differences of sexual development, who seem to be really sick of being dragged into this as some kind of trans "gotcha". No, the existence of clownfish does not stop humans from being a dimorphic species.) in a way we cannot with race. Would you think Archie Mountbatten-Windsor was part black just to look at him?

Nice try, but your attempt to exploit racism to claim women don't need protection is as transparent as it is risible.

Lefthousewithpooinhair it's nothing like that, not allowing males into female safe spaces is not like being racist.

Look at the crime statistics
If you look at the race related crime statistics you will also find that more people of BAME arrested in and around London

No you fuckwit because there is nothing inherent in my biology that makes me more violent or criminal because of my skin colour and the higher crime stats have got a hell of a lot more to do with racism, prejudice and economic disadvantage because of it. Don’t bring our suffering into your shitty argument like some ‘gotcha’ moment.

We are not more violent than white people. There is nothing in the melanin in my skin that makes me or other like me more likely to cause crime. Segregation by skin colour causes higher crime.

Let me be crystal clear, that is in NO WAY COMPARABLE to sex based violence and it’s fucking offensive to suggest otherwise.