to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

If women by sex truly want to safeguard their own spaces, they should not also dent the rights of transwomen to the same.

If transwomen want 3rd spaces, and want to campaign for them good on them. It’s not a job women need to do though, just to make sure women’s spaces don’t go. Women have said no. That should be enough.

@chickenyhead - I’m pretty sure that everyone would agree with you regarding separate spaces. I don’t think anyone wants to force trans people into male only spaces.

I think that, if anyone were to post a thread asking “AIBU that trans people should have separate safe spaces rather than being forced to use spaces for their biological sex”, then the poll result would be overwhelmingly YANBU.

@Theeyeballsinthesky this one - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3797765-Petition-for-third-space-for-trans-people.

Absolutely trans people should be in spaces they feel safe in

And that applies to us all

Problem is that males want to make the rules for females as history has told us and can’t let go of still feeling they are still entitled to which is really difficult to get my head around when they are claiming to be women but show no empathy towards women and girls

Don't bother replying on posts with one message from OP @MissPrimaryCrafts

'I am not of the opposite extreme trying to force them in to male sex spaces which everyone knows are dangerous to them.'

Neither are the majority of us. There are extremes on both sides of the argument but most of us lie somewhere in the middle.

@Waitwhat23

'I am not of the opposite extreme trying to force them in to male sex spaces which everyone knows are dangerous to them.'

Neither are the majority of us. There are extremes on both sides of the argument but most of us lie somewhere in the middle.

I agree and I feel a more measured, less dismissive discussion, out loud; that doesn't alienate or attack parents of transgender children, would be revolutionary for getting to a fair solution.

Most reasonable people understand that gender isn't going anywhere, no matter how hard you stamp your foot; whether you believe it exists or not; it is here.

We need to preserve women's rights to safe spaces and for fair competitive sports. But if we do it in a garbled, dismissive manner, nobody will listen.

Women and transwomen are equally important but entirely separate. The boundaries have been eradicated and women are no longer safe or their voices valued. As a result transwomen are treated with contempt by many women.

But, if women as a sex class stood up for separate and equal rights for the gender reassignment class, then progress can be made to actually separate and reduce the risks to women.

But, if women as a sex class stood up for separate and equal rights for the gender reassignment class, then progress can be made to actually separate and reduce the risks to women.

Again, it’s not the job of women to advance the rights of a group of males. Agree with the idea? Sure. Back them in their cause? Yes. Do all the leg work as the only way to make sure women’s rights are protected? No.

Chickenyhead, you seem to assume that no one has tried that. The #nodebate stance has meant that women have been doxxed, threatened and physically assaulted for trying to have these very conversations.

Why is it the female sex have to compromise always have to think for others

Let’s males be more responsible more thoughtful

Let males as we did make safe spaces for themselves that we shall also support

I’m even using male/females terms to not get pulled into some women have a penis ridiculous responses

YABU. 80% of TW keep their penises and testicles.

I do not want them - or any other male - in our rape crisis centres, refuges, prisons, sports teams or lavatories.

Wake up.

Quite ThreeB

Women asked and asked for years to discuss this issue with the likes of stonewall and all we got in return were #nodebate TWAW, be kind and then when we kept asking, threats of violence, doxxing, women being targeted through their employers.

The idea that the reason so much ground has been gained by TRA is because women haven’t been nice and reasonable enough is frankly pretty insulting

Surely if we are trying to genuinely protect woman by sex anything we do to help secure safe, separate and equal spaces for transwomen is in our own interest. I mean we aren't pedantic, tantrum throwing little children. We are adult women and mothers of the next generation ( many of whom are transgender). Maybe we need to behave like adults and stop expecting men to solve our problems.

I note that the petition for separate safe spaces listed above, set up by 2 transwomen, has only 3.5 k signatures.

IF women on this board, with millions of members, really want safe and separate safe spaces for transwomen, acknowledging their needs as equal but separate; why so few signatures?

How do you know we haven't all signed it already?

Again, it’s not the job of women to advance the rights of a group of males. Agree with the idea? Sure. Back them in their cause? Yes. Do all the leg work as the only way to make sure women’s rights are protected? No.

And this. We've got too much to do safeguarding women's rights from people who are merrily giving them away.

To sign a petition ? Yeah right.

@threeb I have said many, many times that there should have been a considered, rational conversation from the start about how to balance the needs of both groups. But as you said, women received death and rape threats, were doxxed, no platformed, sacked, intimidated etc just for saying 'hang on, how can we discuss this under the edict of no debate'. Stonewall (a huge influential, well funded organisation) have been actively seeking to dismantle single sex spaces instead of trying to have a discussion or lobby for third spaces.

As I said upthread there seem to be some women who would choose a male or mixed space if given the option . If this is really true then they can provide the validation and safety required for TW in those spaces. Personally I wouldn’t and continue to hope that women who dont also, can achieve this impossible goal of single sex provision everywhere.

Maybe we need to behave like adults and stop expecting men to solve our problems.

Surely if trans women don’t feel safe in spaces designed for their male sex then it’s a male problem to solve. It’s men that need to be more accepting of how other males present.
Even better it’s trans peoples problem to solve, single sex spaces are available for the 2 biological sexes, if they choose not to use them as designed they need to come up with another solution for themselves

Third spaces is a fab idea. I would get behind that. A third, additional, mixed sex space. Great stuff. Everyone happy.

If it is our spaces that need protecting, then it is our problem to solve too. No?

@ArabellaScott

Third spaces is a fab idea. I would get behind that. A third, additional, mixed sex space. Great stuff. Everyone happy.

A lot of people who aren't currently involved in this debate would join on these terms. Yes.

Maybe we need to behave like adults and stop expecting men to solve our problems.

They are not our problems

Although mixed sex not so much, transgender space yes.

I think it's time men and women stopped expecting women to solve men's problems for them. That includes taking the lazy way out of the current impasse, by thinking, 'oh well, transwomen will just move into women's spaces, and women will just have to lump it'.

So transwomen and men, plus their allies, should be accepting that the most sensible alternative, is that a third space should be provided, and they should be agitating, fundraising, and doing the work necessary to provide them.