to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

There is a lot of vitriol and tearing to pieces of perfectly genuine posters, often incoherent and insulting. I had thought that I was interested in the philosophy, but if it means that I have to behave this way, nah. I will pass.

There’s actually none of this, just civilised disagreement with a high level of coherent argument and no discernible insults.
The comparison made in the same post of lesbians and transmen who choose to give birth is disingenuous.

There is a petition above with very few signatures, set up by transwomen. Maybe if such a petition were supported by significant numbers of women by sex, their concerns about their safety could be taken seriously.

Maybe we need to behave like adults and stop expecting men to solve our problems

By sorting out men’s problems for them? Males as a sex class are capable of dominating and organising society to their needs. If they wanted 3rd spaces, they could have had them years ago. But they don’t.

"If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women."

Not sure anyone would really deny that?

The problem with self-ID becoming an orthodoxy and even law is that any man can identify as a woman. Even if 'genuine' transwomen's male bodies were ok in women's spaces, there's no test for 'genuine'. In particular there isn't such a test available to women in those spaces: as with the woman in the LA spa who called out the penis in the ladies' sauna, all they see is a man. The self-id orthodoxy requires them to assume it's a lady penis. And in that case it seems the state law requiring 'trans inclusivity' trumped the state law criminalising indecent exposure. (BTW, most people are still not alive to the fact that the new 'transwoman' is now a fully intact heterosexual male - and the newer trend is to move away from stereotypical tokens of feminity - dresses, mascara etc - towards burly blokes with beards who reject the stereotypes...)

Gender fluidity blurs the lines and rules out of existence: some men identify as women on different days (or even random times of day), and as men on other days and at other times. Self-id demands respect for the right to do that.

There is also a massive concern over male-pattern aggression (including rape and death threats) from extreme trans rights activists (TRAs). These exist in sufficient quantity - and are either approved or condoned by advocates that might be considered mainstream - for them to represent a real threat that is far from insignificant within the TRA movement. That extreme aggression is the cutting-edge of the movement to sack and silence women who express concerns about their sex-based rights, one which often spills over into physical violence, by people who appear to be men, against women.

@chickenyhead

If it is our spaces that need protecting, then it is our problem to solve too. No?

Except, we had good safeguarding in place already etc.

The problem actually isn’t us needing to ‘protect’ our spaces. The problem is that transwomen are the ones who felt (and at the start it seems it was male Drs giving away women’s consent) have the right to demand access to these spaces.

The issue is ‘their’ protection from other males. Not our need to protect our spaces as such.

I only became aware of the petition when I Googled this morning (I wasn't on Mumsnet in 2018) and will gladly sign it.

However, petitions will only do so much. Do you not think that organisations such as Stonewall should be pushing for third spaces which as you said, the vast majority of transpeople would support, rather than seeking to dismantle single sex spaces. They have a lot of influence and would have a big voice in these discussions - so why aren't they doing this?

@chickenyhead

If it is our spaces that need protecting, then it is our problem to solve too. No?

Sounds like the victim blaming ‘women should protect themselves from predators’ line.

No, we shouldn’t have to protect our spaces, they are ours! Males should keep out of them.

Maybe we need to behave like adults and stop expecting men to solve our problems.

The sex - yes, biological sex - used as receptacles for other people's needs, almost exclusively to the detriment of their own, has always been women. A key component of male privilege is that men have not traditionally been viewed as support humans. Another aspect of said privilege is the violence and physical coercion men too-frequently exert against women. This is a male problem. It's therefore for males to fix.

I refuse to believe the above post is in any way serious.

As an example, when the Gender Recognition Act was passed, males recognised the need to preserve the right of primogeniture is someone male who may become legally female through the GRA. It was clear that males saw the need to preserve something uniquely advantageous to males through legislation. I see no reason why the same males who were savvy enough to do that, couldn’t also pull enough weight and enough strings to make 3rd spaces happen in a heartbeat, without women having to do a thing.

@helleofabore
Except, we had good safeguarding in place already etc.

But this entire thread is about the fact that we don't have it anymore.

I don't know about you, but for me, as a mother of 2 DD, this is my problem and the reason I even looked on these boards.

Why would we expect men to sort out this issue? Or transwomen to do it alone?

I still can't understand why anyone needs third spaces. We just need men to be inclusive of feminine presenting men!

@NotBadConsidering

Maybe we need to behave like adults and stop expecting men to solve our problems

By sorting out men’s problems for them? Males as a sex class are capable of dominating and organising society to their needs. If they wanted 3rd spaces, they could have had them years ago. But they don’t.

Wasn't there a right-wing party in Latin America that met a gender quota requirement by having lots of male candidates identify as women?

Can't find it, and not sure where it was...

Maybe we need to behave like adults and stop expecting men to solve our problems.

Problems caused by biological men.

www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/mexico-elections-fake-transgender-candidates-disqualified

@cricketmum84 I'm sorry, yes the difficult bit i was sympathising with was the difficulties your daughter faces, and for you in trying to protect her.

I suppose my concern is that women are being cancelled, doxxed and receiving death threats for wanting to discuss it.
Meanwhile, real aggression and bullying of kids like yours is getting missed. I doubt anyone on this thread wants a child/young person bullied for the way they present. Hell, we don't want anybody being bullied. For any reason.
But these things can only be sorted by discussion, not by TRAs silencing us.
It's very sad.

@Waitwhat23

I only became aware of the petition when I Googled this morning (I wasn't on Mumsnet in 2018) and will gladly sign it.

However, petitions will only do so much. Do you not think that organisations such as Stonewall should be pushing for third spaces which as you said, the vast majority of transpeople would support, rather than seeking to dismantle single sex spaces. They have a lot of influence and would have a big voice in these discussions - so why aren't they doing this?

I believe that you cannot control the behaviour of other people, especially not men, but you can put measures in to try to protect, or stand up for yourself.

Having been a victim of multiple sexual attacks by men, why would I think that they should solve an issue regarding my safety?

MeToo was the first time women were heard as a population, including the average woman on the street. Women have the power, but have to be consistent and together to get heard in a male run society.

Anyway, I clearly do not belong here, I am just a mum and woman.

@Peppallama

I still can't understand why anyone needs third spaces. We just need men to be inclusive of feminine presenting men!

I can understand why transwomen would be frightened of having to use an all male space.

Protected male and female spaces, plus a third "open" option for those for whom same sex spaces are not suitable, seems ideal. Takes nothing away from men or women, offers a solution for those who are not suited to or don't want the protected spaces.

The biggest reason this isn't acceptable to the dominant lobby is because they want absolute validation of themselves in all spaces, from all people and at all (women's) cost.

Why would we expect men to sort out this issue? Or transwomen to do it alone?

You protect your daughters’ rights by making sure enough people say no. You don’t need to then go and sort the males’ problem for them. If the no is firm enough, and the pushback is strong enough, and the line is held, then that should be enough. This is about protecting the rights of women and girls. It’s not about sorting out trans rights, whatever rights they think they don’t have. That’s for trans people to sort out.

No one is saying you don't belong here Chickenyhead. Women who have tried to raise their voices have lost their jobs, faced criminal prosecution, been threatened with rape and much more.

We tried to debate. We tried to be kind. When that was met by aggression then you cannot be surprised that many are now bloody angry and in no mood to be kind anymore

[quote NotBadConsidering]www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/22/mexico-elections-fake-transgender-candidates-disqualified[/quote]
Ah that looks like it, thanks!

Didn't realise they'd been removed, I wonder how the electoral officials established they were fake? It sounds like in this particular case you had to be of Zapotec ethnicity. Apart from that, the phrase 'consistently identified as transgender' still begs questions about 'consistent' and 'identify'...sounds like a bit more forward-planning will just be needed until such time as the hateful transphobic denial of the recently-transitioned is overthrown?

@NotBadConsidering

Why would we expect men to sort out this issue? Or transwomen to do it alone?

You protect your daughters’ rights by making sure enough people say no. You don’t need to then go and sort the males’ problem for them. If the no is firm enough, and the pushback is strong enough, and the line is held, then that should be enough. This is about protecting the rights of women and girls. It’s not about sorting out trans rights, whatever rights they think they don’t have. That’s for trans people to sort out.

Transgender people have mothers.

This attitude alienates them from listening to how women's rights are being damaged.

You may think you are helping your cause. Many would disagree. Not on MN but in real life.

I don't follow your logic. Only women should campaign for third spaces. Organisations representing transgender people shouldn't be involved at all? Would it not make sense for us all to work together?

Mine is a genuine question as to why Stonewall is not campaigning for the same thing as we are.

@ThreeB

No one is saying you don't belong here Chickenyhead. Women who have tried to raise their voices have lost their jobs, faced criminal prosecution, been threatened with rape and much more. We tried to debate. We tried to be kind. When that was met by aggression then you cannot be surprised that many are now bloody angry and in no mood to be kind anymore

Maybe we need more women to understand. But to do that it needs to be clear, concise and LOUD. Safe, separate, equally important spaces for all protected groups.

@Waitwhat23

I don't follow your logic. Only women should campaign for third spaces. Organisations representing transgender people shouldn't be involved at all? Would it not make sense for us all to work together?

Mine is a genuine question as to why Stonewall is not campaigning for the same thing as we are.

I didn't say only women.

Twisting my words is passive aggression.

Plenty of trans people have shown empathy with women and women’s rights. But there are plenty who haven’t, and they won’t be won round by “be kind”. They just need to be told no. You can’t have women’s spaces. If transwomen are the sort of people who can’t take no for an answer from women and can’t already see how it might affect women in their lives, then it’s not my job to convince them. It’s not the job of anyone to counsel them into being better more empathetic humans while all their mates call women bitches and T*rfs.

You may think you are helping your cause. Many would disagree. Not on MN but in real life

”Your” cause? Don’t you mean our cause?