to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

And i agree completely with vivariumvivariumsvivaria

@greendiva here is one often referenced

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwiloabDndjxAhVGQEEAHVY_DuYQFjABegQIFRAC&usg=AOvVaw1nfGy7VvUMk_Nrwv81ai3h" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/&ved=2ahUKEwiloabDndjxAhVGQEEAHVY_DuYQFjABegQIFRAC&usg=AOvVaw1nfGy7VvUMk_Nrwv81ai3h

It's a horrible looking link but hopefully you can see its an evidence submission to parliament so is proper and not spam etc

@gluteustothemaximus, you're right that sex is a protected characteristic under current law, but wrong to say gender is, too. Gender reassignment with a certificate is, but not gender per se.

I did wonder this, but during our teacher training day, the 2010 human right act etc was projected up, and although it said gender reassignment, our safeguarding lead said that it also included feeling you were the other gender, without any surgery or anything else taking place. Which led me to question one trumps the other (but only in my head, had I said it out loud it would not have gone down well).

I really like the lady, but these discussions won't end well, and I love my job, so there it will end.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer I get really pissed off when I'm told I'm transphobic for expecting that the medical care for trans and NB people will have the same level of evidence supporting it as for any other population.

I want these people to live long and happy lives. There is a suggestion that cross sex hormones is not going to facilitate that, and that needs examining.

I am at a loss as to how that is hateful.

All the school's around here have changed their school names as well.

St Blah Blah School for Girls' is now just St Blah Blah.

X Grammar School for Boys' is now X Grammar School.

Gender reassignment as per the EA is a fuzzy nightmare of a definition which includes all people who have "taken steps to change physiological or other aspects of their sex" whatever that means. It does not only relate to GRC certificate holders but there is interplay with the GRA.

Of course women’s rights are under attack. Women and girls, in spaces that were previously reserved for the female sex only, are being told there is no space anywhere in the world they can go where they can’t be sure there won’t be a male there too. And if anyone doesn’t like it, they can stay at home/not join the sport/not look/not complain/not be “bigots”.

I will not allow my daughters to grow up into a world where they are gaslit into believing having concerns about their own rights is offensive.

Fuck. That.

I was in the process of trying to understand the philosophy and popped back to ask a question. Reading this thread since I left
has been quite difficult to resolve with who I am and what I believe (as a woman by sex).

I cannot buy in to the opinion on these board that:

Men should be forced to accommodate transwomen by virtue of their sex, ignoring their gender altogether. No. They need to be provided with separate and equal safe spaces, which provide services suited to their specific needs.

Many transwomen have suffered severe abuse at the hands of all of society, been othered, dismissed, denigrated, attacked and raped. Their pain is not irrelevant, it is equal and separately important. Both are vulnerable groups.

@cricketmum84 has been very erudite in explaining her daughter's struggles, they matter. But she has been indirectly accused of being TRA and has had her concerns railroaded over and not compassionately valued.

If you are truly standing up for women's rights, do that, but by denying the existence and needs of transwomen as being less than equal, or saying that they don't deserve separate safe spaces, you are part of the problem. It is discriminatory, disrespectful speech which has no place in a fair society.

This is why lots of people do not like undertaking any debate on MN on this subject and do not want these boards elsewhere on MN.

I feel that if you really wanted to engage with people and get then to listen to your points, you need to treat them with respect and without aggressive denial of their opinions. By doing this gang derision, you become as bad as the TRAs you insist women need protection from. We don't want them in our spaces, send them to be abused.

This attitude does nothing to hide your thinly veiled contempt for these vulnerable people and makes a mockery of your claims that it is all about protecting women.

The other area I struggle to resolve is that transmen as biological women somehow harm women if they choose to be transmen. So what if they have a child. Many lesbian's also have children, it doesn't mean they aren't lesbians.

There is a lot of vitriol and tearing to pieces of perfectly genuine posters, often incoherent and insulting. I had thought that I was interested in the philosophy, but if it means that I have to behave this way, nah. I will pass.

@Bunnyfuller

I think this transphobia crap should be moved to the gender board please *@MNHQ*.

If I want to discuss gender I will go there. I don’t know why they keep insisting it goes in AIBU, the same post, different titles, but the same thing, over and over again.

And yet the poll shows an overwhelming majority believe it is an issue. And funnily enough the last thread about whether this should be discussed on AiBU also showed a very clear majority.

Almost like, checks notes, the clear majority of women want to discuss the topic and believe it is an issue.

You must be beginning to realize that you are actually representing the minority view. And as distressing as it is for you, you can easily scroll past the threads you don’t want to engage with. It is call being an adult.

And the chairperson of the EHRC believes woman have every right to discuss this topic without fear of repercussions.

Such a pity you feel the need to abuse women but insinuating they are transphobic by stating the topic is transphobic.

There is no "gang derision" just women who simply don't believe in gender identity ideology and deplore the lack of care for women and girls by people who do.

Many lesbian's also have children, it doesn't mean they aren't lesbians

of course is bloody doesn't

lesbians don't think they aren't women

but nice lesbophobia there

I had thought that I was interested in the philosophy, but if it means that I have to behave this way, nah. I will pass.

this isn't philosophy, it's women's lives.

their privacy, dignity and safety. It's more important than philosophy

Women in general would be happy with third spaces.

But the trans activists don't seem to want third spaces, they want the validation of being in the women's spaces.

@TeenMinusTests

Women in general would be happy with third spaces.

But the trans activists don't seem to want third spaces, they want the validation of being in the women's spaces.

Yet they aren't the ones on here saying that are they.

this isn't philosophy, it's women's lives.

their privacy, dignity and safety. It's more important than philosophy

Quite. Well said. More guilt tripping to stop women asserting themselves and speaking up.

@chickenyhead - your summary of this discussion is very different to what I’m seeing.

Please report any posts which you think are vitriolic, aggressive and insulting as HQ absolutely won’t tolerate that in these discussions. Plus, report any posts that quote said posts as sometimes these get missed which means that the offensive posts are still there to read.

Yet they aren't the ones on here saying that are they.

Saying what? That we don't want trans people to have third spaces? I'm pretty uncompromising on most of this stuff and I do. So I imagine do the vast majority of GC feminists. And are more than happy for any other women who want to be inclusive to biologically male trans people to join them in those spaces. So not sure what you are thinking.

I have seen many, many posters on these boards who object to third spaces. I just Googled Mumsnet Third spaces and quite a few threads popped up. Including one from 2018 where a petition had been set up by two transwomen, asking the Government to consider third spaces. Even on that thread, there was objections that this suggestion was othering and transphobic.

I'm all for safe spaces for transpeople, in addition to single sex spaces. It has been suggested many, many times as an option to meet everyone's needs. It is rejected out of hand. So what is the answer?

Yet they aren't the ones on here saying that are they

well actions speak louder than words don't they?

Stonewall, the leading trans rights organisation is campaigning for males to be able to use women's spaces, not for third spaces

I wanted to quote the legal definition of gender reassignment in the EA - I paraphrased it earlier but wasn't clear (it isn't clear!)

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

@Waitwhat23

I have seen many, many posters on these boards who object to third spaces. I just Googled Mumsnet Third spaces and quite a few threads popped up. Including one from 2018 where a petition had been set up by two transwomen, asking the Government to consider third spaces. Even on that thread, there was objections that this suggestion was othering and transphobic.

I'm all for safe spaces for transpeople, in addition to single sex spaces. It has been suggested many, many times as an option to meet everyone's needs. It is rejected out of hand. So what is the answer?

I am aware that TRAs don't want this. They are the extreme. I am not of the opposite extreme trying to force them in to male sex spaces which everyone knows are dangerous to them. So for the vast majority of transwomen, separate spaces are the ideal solution. They just wouldn't come here to say it.

If women by sex truly want to safeguard their own spaces, they should not also dent the rights of transwomen to the same.

I actually don't think the majority of women would mind at all if there were a third space for trans people providing that doesn't encroach on women only spaces. I don't actually think I've ever seen anyone argue against this. I'm not saying people don't but I'm sure the majority would be quite happy for a third space.

I don't think the answer is having transwomen allowed in female only spaces nor is it having no separation at all and only having mixed spaces.

The only logical solution is a third space and I'm not sure why anyone (other than extreme TRA's) would even argue against that.

@Waitwhat23

I have seen many, many posters on these boards who object to third spaces. I just Googled Mumsnet Third spaces and quite a few threads popped up. Including one from 2018 where a petition had been set up by two transwomen, asking the Government to consider third spaces. Even on that thread, there was objections that this suggestion was othering and transphobic.

I'm all for safe spaces for transpeople, in addition to single sex spaces. It has been suggested many, many times as an option to meet everyone's needs. It is rejected out of hand. So what is the answer?

This thread?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3400222-Trans-and-third-space

Admittedly I’ve had a quick skim but what I’ve seen is it goes the way most of the threads on 3rd spaces

Lots of agreement it’s the best way
Ppl pointing out that a lot of trans ppl don’t want third spaces because it means they’re not validated
Other ppl saying even suggesting third spaces is transphobic & why can’t you just be kind?

'(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.'

What does 'or other' refer to in 'physiological or other attributes of sex'? Where we are talking about sex (as distinct from gender) what attributes can there be other than physiological? I agree this is not clear.

Before Trans Rights Activism became a money spinner for the likes of Stonewall, Transwomen and women coexisted just fine. Transwomen lived as women, had medical treatment so they were more like women and things worked well.

Trans Rights Activists have done Transwomen a disservice and their aggressive campaigning and actions have turned things into a fight against women. For people who consider themselves to be women, they use the ultimately nasty "male" characteristic of aggression to try and shut up women.

There are reasons why we have sex segregated spaces. I can pee in a cubicle next to a transwoman but I will stand up for those who can't whether it's cultural or trauma reasons. I don't want women excluded from women's spaces and will stand up with them. It is not bigoted to think that some places are just for that sex.

I understand why a transwoman wouldn't want to use the mens but they need to understand that many women will feel the same about their penis so third places are the only answer but will they be used when they believe TWAW etc?

Men who want to enter women's spaces will do regardless of the law but I think a Self ID situation will gradually lead to men entering women's spaces being acceptable. Can you really not imagine a group of men using self ID to enter women's areas as a drunken prank? The law would mean they get away with it too. Would being a peeping Tom even be punishable when a man could just walk into the loos or changing rooms claiming to be a woman?

Over time it would lead to people arguing that single sex places are pointless. Women's sport would collapse as we are biologically limited compared to male anatomy. If you look at the world records for women, the most sporty boys overtake them around age 15. Although I'm not sporty, a works without the likes of Serena Williams would be a disaster for future generations.