to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

I think this transphobia crap should be moved to the gender board please

Why? It’s a very popular thread, there’s an actual AIBU (not just traffic) and a relevant poll and an interesting debate and discussion.

I haven’t seen a single transphobic post, in fact there’s a lot of empathy and understanding.

@cricketmum84 having a trans daughter must be very difficult. I'm sure i would be equally frantic about acceptance and safety if it were one of mine.
But truly, what I see on this thread is women discussing how it affects them, in a not horrible manner

@gluteustothemaximus, you're right that sex is a protected characteristic under current law, but wrong to say gender is, too. Gender reassignment with a certificate is, but not gender per se.

I wonder how the number of TW sexually assaulted in prison compares with assaults of other vulnerable males in prison
They all need protecting. I am involved with children who have been in the care system and a lot of the vulnerable young men end up in prison. I fear for them and its heartbreaking
What should never happen is that part of the male group is placed on the female wing. That isn't fair to females
The issue has come because of pretending that being a woman is something other than being born female
I celebrate all gender non confirming people but telling boys that they are girls (or girls that they are boys) is wrong and cruel

@WhoNeedsaManOfTheWorld

I wonder how the number of TW sexually assaulted in prison compares with assaults of other vulnerable males in prison They all need protecting. I am involved with children who have been in the care system and a lot of the vulnerable young men end up in prison. I fear for them and its heartbreaking What should never happen is that part of the male group is placed on the female wing. That isn't fair to females The issue has come because of pretending that being a woman is something other than being born female I celebrate all gender non confirming people but telling boys that they are girls (or girls that they are boys) is wrong and cruel

It's low, the nonces are the most attacked prisoners. Even by other inmates on the VP wings. Their is a hierarchy, to be honest in my experience most TW's on VP wings don't get much bother. They also tends to be "partners" of the odd one or two.

I will be honest some of the comments on here of people's perception of trans girls have really upset me. It breaks my heart that my beautiful, kind, caring girl will always have to meet these opinions and feelings.

I have a natally female daughter and believe me I'm not looking forward to some of the opinions and feelings I know are coming for her...

Your daughter absolutely has a right to safety, but not at the cost of my daughter's safety. There are solutions available to meet everyone's needs and they should be implemented.

I am sorry that we cannot validate your daughter's feminine identity at all costs, in all areas, without exception, without endangering other daughters. It's simply a matter of their biology. It's not personal. It doesn't mean we think your daughter is a predator, any more than I think my husband is. But some protections and spaces have to be sex based because we simply cannot level the field on biology.

Toilets don't bother me, but I understand what some posters have said about them being used to set a precedent that would then remove protections for other spaces.

I agree the problem is men and not trans women.

However trans women do have a penis, it’s gets messy saying yes to some and not others, to ensure safely it should be a blank no to stop things getting complicated.

Changing rooms are not so much as an issue compared to women’s prisons, camps and things involving having to sleep or be in close quarters.

I also think trans women should not be allowed in women’s sport.

Men need to welcome trans women and make their fellow man feel more safe, not put that job on to women!

[quote Skybluepinkgiraffe]@cricketmum84 having a trans daughter must be very difficult. I'm sure i would be equally frantic about acceptance and safety if it were one of mine.
But truly, what I see on this thread is women discussing how it affects them, in a not horrible manner[/quote]
Thank you

It's not difficult really, we love and accept her for who she is. What's difficult is other people's perception of her and the difficulties she faces in everyday life. When she dresses in boy clothes because she is too scared to pop to the shop wearing what she is comfortable with. Having to report to the police because she has been beaten up at the bus stop because she has long red hair and eyeliner. Coping with three years of anger and aggression because she couldn't come to terms with how she felt about herself. Missing out on two years of school because her classmates would shout out "what name is the freak using today"

That's why I feel so aggrieved by some of these comments.

will be honest some of the comments on here of people's perception of trans girls have really upset me. It breaks my heart that my beautiful, kind, caring girl will always have to meet these opinions and feelings.

It really upsets me how people have zero care for the feelings, privacy, dignity and comfort of many equally vulnerable women and girls and think they can just be dismissed.

Women and girls matter.

Your daughter absolutely has a right to safety, but not at the cost of my daughter's safety. There are solutions available to meet everyone's needs and they should be implemented.

I am sorry that we cannot validate your daughter's feminine identity at all costs, in all areas, without exception, without endangering other daughters. It's simply a matter of their biology. It's not personal. It doesn't mean we think your daughter is a predator, any more than I think my husband is. But some protections and spaces have to be sex based because we simply cannot level the field on biology.

This. This is something that people need to stop thinking is personal. It isn't. Sex matters for a whole host of reasons.

@Bunnyfuller

I think this transphobia crap should be moved to the gender board please *@MNHQ*.

If I want to discuss gender I will go there. I don’t know why they keep insisting it goes in AIBU, the same post, different titles, but the same thing, over and over again.

Feel free to highlight where that's happening.

We will wait.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

will be honest some of the comments on here of people's perception of trans girls have really upset me. It breaks my heart that my beautiful, kind, caring girl will always have to meet these opinions and feelings.

It really upsets me how people have zero care for the feelings, privacy, dignity and comfort of many equally vulnerable women and girls and think they can just be dismissed.

Women and girls matter.

For actual fucks sake.

If you actually read any of my posts you would see that I am not saying that women and girls don't matter.

I am saying that trans girls also matter. Not more. Not less. But EQUALLY.

@Bunnyfuller

I think this transphobia crap should be moved to the gender board please *@MNHQ*.

If I want to discuss gender I will go there. I don’t know why they keep insisting it goes in AIBU, the same post, different titles, but the same thing, over and over again.

I don’t think you’ve read the OP.

Cricket are you able to share what help has been available for your daughter?

Does she get support for her mental health? Because my kid's pal is trans and it has purely been puberty blockers (from 15) and now cross sex hormones (From 17). They have not had ANY Assessment to screen for e.g. autism people with which are known to have a higher prevalence of gender differences.

The pal, whom I've known since they were 2 and is regularly round at our house, is definitely happier with treatment, but has had similar challenges as you describe.

I find it hard to understand why gender issues are seen as a purely medical thing when there is clearly distress too - and I don't see that being managed. Which doesn't strike me as good care.

AIBU doesn't belong to you any more or less than it belongs to me or anyone else, BunnyFuller. This thread was not started by a GC feminist, but there is no reason it can't be in AIBU. It is a perfectly reasonable AIBU and has a poll.

It's not difficult really, we love and accept her for who she is. What's difficult is other people's perception of her and the difficulties she faces in everyday life. When she dresses in boy clothes because she is too scared to pop to the shop wearing what she is comfortable with. Having to report to the police because she has been beaten up at the bus stop because she has long red hair and eyeliner. Coping with three years of anger and aggression because she couldn't come to terms with how she felt about herself. Missing out on two years of school because her classmates would shout out "what name is the freak using today"...That's why I feel so aggrieved by some of these comments.

I'm so sorry that she has had to go through all of that. It is absolutely disgraceful, wicked and unacceptable.

Nobody on this thread has ever suggested that any of that is OK, and nobody on this thread would ever do such terrible things. It is appalling but it is not fair to imply that we have some sort of responsibility for it.

There are solutions that protect your daughter and other trans women that do not involve removing women's sex based protections and rights. Those are the ones we need to look towards.

In most everyday situations it won't matter. In a few spheres, it really really does.

@DrSbaitso

I will be honest some of the comments on here of people's perception of trans girls have really upset me. It breaks my heart that my beautiful, kind, caring girl will always have to meet these opinions and feelings.

I have a natally female daughter and believe me I'm not looking forward to some of the opinions and feelings I know are coming for her...

Your daughter absolutely has a right to safety, but not at the cost of my daughter's safety. There are solutions available to meet everyone's needs and they should be implemented.

I am sorry that we cannot validate your daughter's feminine identity at all costs, in all areas, without exception, without endangering other daughters. It's simply a matter of their biology. It's not personal. It doesn't mean we think your daughter is a predator, any more than I think my husband is. But some protections and spaces have to be sex based because we simply cannot level the field on biology.

Toilets don't bother me, but I understand what some posters have said about them being used to set a precedent that would then remove protections for other spaces.

Absolutely all of this!! The sexual harassment and assault of teenage girls is endemic society has pretty much given up trying to do anything about it, male is the default across everything, everything is designed around and tested on the male body - medicines, cars, smart phones, PPE, women still do more housework & childcare even if both partners work ft and women are still judged primarily by their appearance above anything

Women have fought and fought for everything we have and to have all of it handed over to TW (which don’t forget can mean anything from wearing a dress pt to work to full surgery & hormones) on the basis of beeeeee kiiiiind when no one gives the tiniest fuck about being kind to women boils my piss

am saying that trans girls also matter. Not more. Not less. But EQUALLY.

Then you need to stop inferring that women speaking up for the rights of women and girls are attacking your child. It's not about your child. It's about female people. We matter. As you say. Equally.

There are solutions that protect your daughter and other trans women that do not involve removing women's sex based protections and rights. Those are the ones we need to look towards.

Yes.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

Cricket are you able to share what help has been available for your daughter?

Does she get support for her mental health? Because my kid's pal is trans and it has purely been puberty blockers (from 15) and now cross sex hormones (From 17). They have not had ANY Assessment to screen for e.g. autism people with which are known to have a higher prevalence of gender differences.

The pal, whom I've known since they were 2 and is regularly round at our house, is definitely happier with treatment, but has had similar challenges as you describe.

I find it hard to understand why gender issues are seen as a purely medical thing when there is clearly distress too - and I don't see that being managed. Which doesn't strike me as good care.

Hi, we have had involvement from CAMHS and she has a diagnosis of autism and ADHD. It took two years though to get to that point.

We paid for a private counsellor but it didn't really help.

The best thing that helped was a barnados worker organised by social services early help team. She was absolutely lovely. She took her to subway once a week and talked her through coping techniques and anger management. She was a totally different girl after that.

We are still waiting for referral to the gender clinic.

I am saying that trans girls also matter. Not more. Not less. But EQUALLY

the thing is, trans girls are male. and in our society what males want matters more than what females want. It's not right, but it's the way it is

Feminists have to speak up for what women want - no one else will

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

Utterly cowardly behaviour. Shame on you.

Glad she's had support Cricket.

Do you have any concerns about the number of these kids who have autism? My daughter's friend's behaviour is very similar to my nephew's who is autistic. I'm no psychiatrist but I am curious about why there is a lack of questioning this by the Autism charities and people who work in this field.

What if some of these kids aren't gender dysphoric, what if their distress and discomfort at puberty is related to being autistic and going through puberty?

There are so many of these kids, all of a sudden. If there was a spike in diabetes in our youth like there has been for gender differences there would be a public enquiry to find out why. Why not for gender?

I do worry about the perfect storm of long gender clinic waiting lists and kids in distress.

I'm not even talking about trauma response. Or religious requirements. Or abuse survivors. Or fairness in sport. All of which are solid reasons for single sex spaces.

I value the companionship, solidarity and feeling of female only spaces. Walking groups, book clubs, saunas, camping trips, mothers' groups, crafting circles, girls' nights out. Women at ease among each other, not worried about the male gaze, mansplaining, manspreading or male dominance. Women know and understand the difference of a woman's group/space.

Women's spaces are different than mixed sex spaces.

The inclusion of a male renders a woman's space a mixed sex space. It's not rocket science. It changes things, which is why almost all societies in all cultures have both mixed sex spaces and single sex spaces. This is pretty consistent throughout history.

Mixed sex spaces can also be good, of course. And necessary. But they are not the same.

Our voices, dynamics, behaviours, feelings, jokes, trust, stress etc are all affected by the presence of males. Which is why women's spaces are so important and why they can't be so easily thrown away because some people are unhappy about being excluded.

I am not going to give up women's spaces. I will fight for them.

@Bunnyfuller

I think this transphobia crap should be moved to the gender board please *@MNHQ*.

If I want to discuss gender I will go there. I don’t know why they keep insisting it goes in AIBU, the same post, different titles, but the same thing, over and over again.

Mumsnet are very quick to move threads talking about womens rights and sex/gender to the FWR board

They dont seem to want to move threads talking about trans rights and sex/gender

People have been reporting…