to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

Sexual assault is not limited to women being assaulted by men.

Of course not, but it's a massive part of it and women have set up services that are safe for women who have been assaulted by men and need female-only spaces.

Why does a transwoman's desire for validation of het identity in every field trump a traumatised woman's need for a safe, female-only space?

No cricketmum rape crisis is for women.

From their website

Our work focuses on the needs and rights of women and girls, and providing specialist services in women-only safe spaces. At the same time, we recognise boys and men also experience sexual violence, and the impacts on their lives can be just as wide-ranging and long-term.

Rape Crisis believes all victims and survivors deserve specialist support. We work in partnership with organisations that represent men and boys to lobby Government for adequate, sustained funding for specialist services for all victims and survivors.

It's okay for women to have their own service, no organisation has to be everything to everyone. It's enough to be supportive of others needs without trying to be the one to meet everyone's needs. As was said up thread Rape Crisis was set up by women for women.

For a balanced argument

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117.amp

If trans women can just self-identify and wander around with beards, then they do not need access to women’s spaces, because they are happy to be identified as people who are not biologically women, so should be perfectly happy using spaces for biological men, instead. It is therefore perfectly legitimate to ban them from spaces created for biological women and either expect them to use spaces for men, or separate spaces for transgender women.

@cricketmum84 how do you feel about transgender people and men campaigning for their own rape crisis centres and other safe spaces?

There was a post upthread by a poster who works in a women's refuge and she pointed out that many women who have been assaulted cannot deal with male bodied people at all. The article that was recently posted discusses how women who've ever been sexually assaulted can develop deep rooted psychosis regarding men.

How safe would your lovely trans daughter feel if any bloke could come into the loos (for example)?

OK @cricketmum84 I have just read that article.
And I'll ask again, how do you feel about transgender people campaigning for there own safe spaces?
Why do you think the safety of transgender people is more important than that of women and girls?
It's a difficult topic, which is why it needs sunlight and discussion.

@cricketmum84 my previous post mentioned that Rape Crisis Scotland do provide services for many groups, including transgender people.

However, the services advertised as 'only for women' are not only for women as it includes transwomen.

Women on this thread and others I have read have mentioned the need for women who have been traumatised by rape to have spaces away from male bodied people, due to being triggered by male voices etc. They can no longer access that at Rape Crisis Edinburgh.

As mentioned before, the person who was appointed was not eligible to take the position as the organisation chose to use the occupational exemptions. It does beg the question as to why. As someone else has mentioned, this appointment is essentially a political statement because of the Scottish Government's stance on TWAW. This means women are losing single sex spaces.

Sorry, my first line should read Rape Crisis Edinburgh

And don’t try to tell me that separate men’s and women’s toilets were EVER created to separate people with different “gender identities”; they were created to encourage people to keep male and female genitalia apart. You have to expose your genitalia to use the toilet and that was the bit society had a problem with when it created separate sex toilets. We may be less prurient as a society now, but we still recognise sexual characteristics when we see them and they are still very relevant in identifying potential risks and vulnerabilities.

[quote cricketmum84]For a balanced argument

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117.amp[/quote]
It's not a balanced argument. It's a news story about transgender people being attacked in prisons. It's awful. But it doesn't mean traumatised women should be subjected to male people in their safe spaces or be accused of bigotry and prejudice. Men who are not trans are attacked in male prisons too. Doesn't mean there's no need for female-only spaces.

Women set up female only safe spaces for assaulted women. Why could transgender people not do the same?

Sports

Trans people can be excluded from sports. The Olympic Committee chooses not to. Either exclusion or inclusion is legal.

Women's refuges

The majority of refuges these days are single units with their own bathrooms and kitchens. They are by default single sex.

Women's prisons

Most trans women have not actually been transferred into female prisons.

Something tells me it isn’t only transgender people getting beaten up in prisons. Should all people who are at particular risk of being beaten up in prison be transferred to women’s prisons? Paedophiles, former policemen, etc?

I think this transphobia crap should be moved to the gender board please @MNHQ.

If I want to discuss gender I will go there. I don’t know why they keep insisting it goes in AIBU, the same post, different titles, but the same thing, over and over again.

[quote cricketmum84]For a balanced argument

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117.amp[/quote]

In order for this to bring balance we need to know how many male prisoners were sexually assaulted by male prisoners in male prisons, and how many female prisoners were sexually assaulted by female prisoners in female prisons.

Currently all this shows me is that male bodied people sexually assault people that they see as vulnerable.

Of the 143 female prisoners sexually assaulted the report says that 9 of those assaults were by trans women. We could assume that the remainder were commuted by female prisoners or we could assume they were committed by male staff/visitors.

[quote cricketmum84]For a balanced argument

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-52748117.amp[/quote]
That's not a balanced argument. It's not an argument at all.
It's simply evidence that there is an issue for trans women.
Allowing any male prisoner to self-identify into women's prisons does not solve the problem.
All that does is shift the instances of sexual assault from trans women to women.
Women do not exist to take the fall for everyone's problems. We just don't.
If trans women are being assaulted in male prisons, then the authorities either need to make male prisons safer or create separate segregated prisons for trans women where they can be safe.
Making women less safe is not the answer.

A balanced argument on what?

What I read was transwomen in a male prison have been attacked by men and that some men identifying as women in a female prison have attacked women.

What I read was an article about male violence whether that be violence towards men or women.

But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Trans women have exactly the same offending patterns as men. All accessible toilets are gender neutral, there is no reason for a trans women to use the ladies toilet.

There is no reason for a trans woman to take the place of a woman on an all female short list, a women's sports team or in a women's changing room.

@Skybluepinkgiraffe

OK *@cricketmum84* I have just read that article. And I'll ask again, how do you feel about transgender people campaigning for there own safe spaces? Why do you think the safety of transgender people is more important than that of women and girls? It's a difficult topic, which is why it needs sunlight and discussion.

I don't feel that the safety of trans women and girls is MORE important.

I feel that it is equally important.

And I say this as the mother of an amazing strong, resilient trans girl who doesn't feel safe in male spaces and doesn't feel that she can be accepted in female spaces.

They need their own space.

Imagine being sent to the disabled toilets to change for P.E at school. If you didn't already feel different and isolated then you certainly will do after that.

I will be honest some of the comments on here of people's perception of trans girls have really upset me. It breaks my heart that my beautiful, kind, caring girl will always have to meet these opinions and feelings.

@Bunnyfuller

I think this transphobia crap should be moved to the gender board please *@MNHQ*.

If I want to discuss gender I will go there. I don’t know why they keep insisting it goes in AIBU, the same post, different titles, but the same thing, over and over again.

Bunny If you see any transphobic posts then please report them and MNHQ will delete them. Having an opinion that sex matters is not transphobic. Saying things you disagree with are not transphobic. Who is 'they'? In this case it was a poster saying she didn't think there is an issue. You can always hide threads. hth.

It’s not just about safety for trans people. It’s about supporting trans men and women to live as the sex they’ve transitioned to, as much as is feasibly possible.

It’s not just about safety for women either: privacy and dignity. But trans men and women need privacy and dignity as well. This has been enshrined in law by the European Convention on Human Rights and the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.

They need their own space.

The majority of us agree with you here but alot of transwomen and allies do not. They only want acceptance within a female only space.

They can't transition to a new sex, Field.

Humans can change their clothing and alter our bodies through hormones and surgery, but we can't change sex.

I appreciate this is very hard for trans people to accept, I know and love some people with gender issues -but perpetuating the myth that humans can change sex is to indulge in a delusion that leads to harm when they realise that they don't pass/aren't accepted in single sex spaces/aren't female.

Sex is immutable and the GRA has done harm by creating a legal fiction that desperate people then believe. Reality is they will never be able to be what they want to be. That is what counselling is for.

@cricketmum84 I really hope that your daughter can get all the support she needs in all situations.

I hope it isn’t true about this rape centre.

Of course transgirls and transwomen need support. And I think there should be a specialised rape service for them. Maybe rape of transwomen also have a transphobic undertone? They would need specialist help to work through that.

And born women need support and help and not being met by a male voice or anyone they might perceive to be male. From what I have seen here, that could be extremely triggering. I cannot imagine a transwoman putting any kind of personal validation above the mental health of a born woman. That would just be evil.

Two separate buildings, separately staffed and with separate phone lines. I think that is the only solution to this.

Just a reminder that pictures speak a thousand words

This is why TW need to compete with men not women

@Walkaround

Something tells me it isn’t only transgender people getting beaten up in prisons. Should all people who are at particular risk of being beaten up in prison be transferred to women’s prisons? Paedophiles, former policemen, etc?

No they go on "VP" wings vulnerable prisoners. But it's important that these are still same sex VP wings.

VP wings hold sex offenders, adults with disabilities physical and or sensory, the old and frail, someone who has built up debt in main population or at risk from violence due to gangs l, ex police or drugs on main population.

The prison system can and does help vulnerable prisoners. There is no need to move people with penises who are vulnerable to a prison where people without penises are serving custodial sentences.