to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

Women have always had to consider their safety. Now I've added public bathrooms, changing rooms etc to the list. Add a third sex/unisex option if it's an issue - don't restrict my choices.

Women only spaces

We offer women only spaces (which are inclusive of trans women) in our centre on Tuesdays 4pm – 7pm, Wednesdays 12.30pm – 4pm and Fridays 9am – 12.30pm. The rest of the week we offer appointments to people of all genders.

*Women only spaces

We don't offer women only spaces
Tuesdays 4pm – 7pm unisex service
Wednesdays 12.30pm – 4pm - unisex service
and Fridays 9am – 12.30pm - unisex service.
The rest of the week we offer
appointments to people of all genders. a unisex service.

Indeed Runningupthecurtains

Sports, refuges, prisons and the erosion of lesbians - I have no issue with trans women, preferred pronouns. However when young lesbians are being told it's phobic not to accept sleeping with someone with a penis, I have an issue. Women in vulnerable positions being told that they have to accept people of the opposite sex in their space when vulnerable, I have an issue

Firstly, Lots of people have posted information way better than I could have answered.

Secondly, I have taken time to read the whole thread. I can’t scroll back easily to find the exact couple of posts to quote, but a couple were along the lines of “the vitriol on here towards the trans community is vile and makes me fell ashamed”. Nothing else - just those statements. And they sum up my frustration.

I don’t think any posts on this thread have been vile. I think, if you break it down, most women understand and agree that trans women should be able to live their lives without discrimination etc.

Why can’t those posters understand that the pushback is, mostly, against the movement towards self-ID? That literally any man could say he identifies as a woman - and that would give him access to many, many spaces that are totally inappropriate.

Do those with gender dysphoria, going through a very lengthy and traumatic process, need protective rights and support? Yes, absolutely. Is it right that any male can announce that he is a woman and therefore be allowed into female spaces and be protected by law from those that object? No, it really isn’t.

It is really simple when you boil the facts down. Allowing self-ID will literally be an open pass/all areas accessed freebie to any person with a penis to have free reign to do as they wish.

Trans women need safe places. These do not come at the expense of female only spaces. The majority of women would join the fight for trans women to gain those safe spaces. Unfortunately, the lobbying groups don’t seem to want to start that fight.

Seems a few people on here think this thread was created for screenshots. If that’s the case, then please screenshot this as my view:

Trans women deserve to live their lives free from hate, persecution and discrimination. But not at the expense of natal females. I support them having a safe space.

Self-ID is a path to exploitation - how anyone can fail to see this is completely beyond me.

I meant to add:

@illuminatethis - you name changed early on, to show that you were “engaging” with this discussion. Yet you have not responded to a lot of posts and queries. Are you going to come back, having read through them, with your thoughts etc?

Brava, Furries, brava!

I appreciate that this is a very flippant way to view things, but I can’t imagine that there will ever be a huge self-id rush for women wanting to gain access to male-only areas.

Weird, eh, how our base instincts are to veer away from those situations?

Apparently, it's even more rare than I thought-less than 0.1% of the trans community undergoes genital surgery each year. Very few surgeons in the UK and US perform this kind of surgery and the numbers of people who get these surgeries is tiny. Only 2.8 percent of transgender people have any kind of gender-affirming treatment, including hormones. So 97.2 of transgender folx simply self-identifyl fairplayforwomen.com/penis/, the

Excellent post @Furries!

@cricketmum84 I think if you'd read the extremely reasoned responses through the whole of this thread, you wouldn't need to ask 'why?'

@gluteustothemaximus It's so scary how this is in schools. Our safeguarding lead is well and truly stonewalled but it's just surface scratching

Yes, equally scary that the OP is a newly qualified teacher.

I don't think not having the surgery means a person can't be trans. It is huge, risky surgery. They may wish they could have the opposite sex body but just not be willing to take the risks.

But the shift of thinking in what it is to be trans is problematic. "Trans people have a disconnection between their inherent sense of self and the sex of the body they inhabit" is one thing. "Womanhood is just a feeling, you can actively prefer living in a male body but STILL be a woman because pink feeling" is another.

Womanhood isn't a feeling. Woman is not a costume. We would all have identified out of many parts of womanhood if we could, but we can't.

Why do these men always tell us they, as males, are "redefining woman"? Why are they not redefining men?

How dare they?

“This is an interview with a Stonewall advisor and transwoman in Wales, who is open that they don't intend to have any surgery or hormonal treatment.”

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/there-no-legal-bars-woman-10297113
Isn’t this person confusing being a transvestite with being a transsexual? They don’t seem remotely unhappy about being born in a man’s body. They’re just a man who likes to play being a woman, but only the bits that suit them and only if it conforms with their internal stereotype of what being a woman means - one as offensive as the male stereotyping they are trying to escape from.

This is another one I don't understand - I see lots of women who take offense to phrases such as 'pregnant people' and I just don't understand the offence. I'm a person so this applies to me, I'm not offended at being referred to as a person

In the words of Helen Joyce…

“Governments, companies and charities now talk of 'people who menstruate', 'pregnant people', 'abortion seekers' and 'birthing parents', where they would once simply have said 'women'.

As such, women are being erased.

The NHS explains that 'the concept of virginity for people with vaginas has a complicated history'.

Teen Vogue offers a 'no-nonsense, 101 guide to masturbation for vagina owners'. Information campaigns from cancer charities tell 'anyone with a cervix' to get regular smear tests.

An advert for Tampax enjoins the world to 'celebrate the diversity of all people who bleed'.

This language depicts women as orifices, providers of genetic material and vessels for growing offspring. This is not just dehumanising: it also obscures the fact that these body parts and functions come as a package”

Also, how much harder it would have been to argue for the vote for women, or for paid maternity leave, or to end the exemption that allowed men to rape their wives at will, if the only way to refer to the beneficiaries of such policies had been to list bodily secretions and sexual organs.

If the stated reason for such language, to be inclusive of transmen (females who identify as male), were sincere, we would see similar linguistic manoeuvres so as not to exclude transwomen (males who identify as female) when talking about males.

There would be articles and advertising campaigns aimed at testicle-havers, semen-producers and the like.

'Anyone with a prostate' would be told to get it checked. But no such language is used. The inconsistency is flagrant.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

’The hardest thing about being a woman is deciding what to wear in the morning,' said Caitlin Jenner.

I remember a MtF vicar in the UK, who said the same thing about their first meeting with the church congregation after transitioning. The sheer contemptuous shallowness of it.

How does anyone fail to see how regressive this is? How the endless publicity given to transwomen and their 1950s attitudes is teaching children to see women as a brainless parody?

Gives me the rage!

Getting dressed in the morning is easy, I throw on whatever is clean and fits, rarely is it pretty, pink or in any way stereotypically girly.

The hardest think about being a woman most days is bracing myself for yet another day of justifying my position at work, attending meeting after meeting filled with men who obviously know better than me and need to explain the concepts I've introduced in small words as I'm just a woman and couldn't possibly understand. Being very careful to not mention anything like school pick up or needing to put my child to bed because it just seems to fuel the belief that women shouldn't be in senior positions with some of these men.

Other things about being a woman that are significantly harder than figuring out what to wear would include:

• debating with myself whether it's even worth contacting the doctors about the fact I've not had a period for 3 months as my male doctor will just tell for me off.
• deciding when to go to the garage to look for a new car as I'll need to be in the right headspace to have someone ignore me and ask whether I want to check my choice with my husband despite the fact he doesn't drive, knows nothing about cars and couldn't care less
• trying to fit in a run around school drop off, work and bedtime while also factoring in that I prefer to be home before dark because running through a park at night is dodgy and scary when you're female

www.spectator.com.au/2021/07/why-should-women-tolerate-the-big-swinging-dicks-of-the-transgender-movement/

I never thought I'd be quoting the spectator!

"My name is Sarah. My parents almost called me Jane."

"Hi, Person Who Was Nearly Called Jane!"

Thanks for posting article

I see op dropped a bomb and ran. Still delighted this is in ABIU.

One of the TRA arguments against additional spaces (someone rightly pointed out to me once that we already have 'third' spaces - for those with disabilities) is that they would be 'outing' for trans people to use them. However, I disagree with that argument. Additional, mixed-sex spaces such as toilets and changing rooms could be used not only by trans people but also:

• those who identify as non-binary
• fathers with daughters
• mothers with sons (many an AIBU thread about this one)
• all those people who proclaim they don't care who they pee next to

With all those people in the additional spaces, I can't see why it would be outing for a trans person to use such a space and as a mother of a boy I would probably use them myself on occasion.

Another argument is funding and that businesses wouldn't be willing to spend the money required to implement this. But a quick look at the hoops organisations are expected to jump through (and they appear to want to) in order to appear on Stonewall's list suggests that they are willing to throw money and resources at something to appear inclusive. Plus, as mentioned, Stonewall and others have significant resources they could use to help fund such additional spaces.

I agree @DickKerrLadies. Thank you for articulating my thoughts.

That's a great article @Illogicalmadness. I am so, so pleased that there is more light being shone on all this now. Thank you for sharing it.

@Skybluepinkgiraffe

Excellent post *@Furries*!

@cricketmum84 I think if you'd read the extremely reasoned responses through the whole of this thread, you wouldn't need to ask 'why?'

Why not?

Why can't a transgender person understand the effect of sexual assault?

Do Rape Crisis only ever deal with the women who have been sexually assaulted by men?

What about men sexually assaulted by men?

Men sexually assaulted by women?

What about trans women sexually assaulted by men?

Trans men sexually assaulted by women?

Sexual assault is not limited to women being assaulted by men.

@Illogicalmadness

www.spectator.com.au/2021/07/why-should-women-tolerate-the-big-swinging-dicks-of-the-transgender-movement/

I never thought I'd be quoting the spectator!

Wow. That is one powerful article.

Illogicalmadness

Excellent article.