to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

@borntobequiet

I’ve seen way more nastiness on a flannels thread. (In fact a cursory glance shows none on here.) OP, if you wanted to provoke a bloodbath, almost anything laundry related would have done.

Or admitting to owning a toilet brush.

I agree that a small number of people can "pass", some without surgery (although most of these people are women passing as men). But the fact that the rare man who passes can then go into women's spaces - but not undress (which is pretty important) - and "pass" doesn't mean that it's therefore not a good idea to exclude men from women's spaces. The fact that 1 man can go into women's toilets unrecognised, doesn't mean that it's a good idea to allow 1000 men in.

@LittleMyTopKnot

I really want transwomen to be protected. I understand that they are a very vulnerable group. I cannot imagine what they would face in prisons. It is such a hard balance isn’t it?

Why don’t we try to campaign for special spaces for transwomen, everywhere where needed, pools, prisons etc? In that way transwomen would be much more safe and protected and born women /girls would be safe and protected as well. And transwomen would be unlikely to worry too much about exposed penises.

I think that may be a really good solution.

It would be the best and only logical solution. But it isn't accepted because it doesn't satisfy their need to be seen as a real woman.

@LittleMyTopKnot

I really want transwomen to be protected. I understand that they are a very vulnerable group. I cannot imagine what they would face in prisons. It is such a hard balance isn’t it?

Why don’t we try to campaign for special spaces for transwomen, everywhere where needed, pools, prisons etc? In that way transwomen would be much more safe and protected and born women /girls would be safe and protected as well. And transwomen would be unlikely to worry too much about exposed penises.

I think that may be a really good solution.

I think society as a whole would need to do this for it to work unfortunately.

The current consensus given the recent prison ruling, is that the protected characteristic of being a woman by sex is lesser than and not currently equal to transwomen rights.

As such women by sex are anti trans, rather than pro all being equal.

@littletopknot because spaces such as you describe, often called third spaces, are considered 'othering' and transphobic. Somehow.

The thing is, many women HAVE suggested this for quite some time!

Oh no I know that. Sorry, what I meant is I would like to see the people who push for the use of female space to answer why they don't push for a separate safe space.

I have not read the whole thread yet but it is interesting that the phrasing of the op somehow means that it not met with demands for it to be moved to the naughty step. Looks as though, faced with the actual evidence, lived experience etc, women know what is real and who is a danger to us. On another AIBU thread there were some women( not absolutely sure tbh) who think 5hey would be happy to share male spaces. Surely if they did, TW would also feel validated and safe by going there too?

@SilenceOfTheNaans

The thing is, many women HAVE suggested this for quite some time!

Oh no I know that. Sorry, what I meant is I would like to see the people who push for the use of female space to answer why they don't push for a separate safe space.

That would be ideal and something supported by us all, I’m sure!

@SilenceOfTheNaans

The thing is, many women HAVE suggested this for quite some time!

Oh no I know that. Sorry, what I meant is I would like to see the people who push for the use of female space to answer why they don't push for a separate safe space.

Now THAT is actually the question.

@Thevenerableswede

I have not read the whole thread yet but it is interesting that the phrasing of the op somehow means that it not met with demands for it to be moved to the naughty step. Looks as though, faced with the actual evidence, lived experience etc, women know what is real and who is a danger to us. On another AIBU thread there were some women( not absolutely sure tbh) who think 5hey would be happy to share male spaces. Surely if they did, TW would also feel validated and safe by going there too?

Why should women by sex be allowed in transwomen spaces? Both are equal and separate.

@LittleMyTopKnot

I really want transwomen to be protected. I understand that they are a very vulnerable group. I cannot imagine what they would face in prisons. It is such a hard balance isn’t it?

Why don’t we try to campaign for special spaces for transwomen, everywhere where needed, pools, prisons etc? In that way transwomen would be much more safe and protected and born women /girls would be safe and protected as well. And transwomen would be unlikely to worry too much about exposed penises.

I think that may be a really good solution.

I completely agree with this. My daughter needs a safe space in the exact same way that someone's female born daughter needs one.

There is too much horribleness on here sometimes labelling trans girls as potential abusers.

People seem to forget that these girls are people too. Very confused and easily hurt people. Not abusers and rapists but confused and hurt girls who are struggling with their true self and their identity.

The general attitude I see on MN towards trans girls makes me seriously worry for my darling girl.

But I don’t understand why a third space would be transphobic ?

If you have a place like the spa where everyone is walking around naked, surely transwomen would not want to stand out? I cannot imagine transwomen want to walk around exposing their penises and testicles . They would surely feel quite dysphoric and embarrassed.

I do understand if they feel safer away from men though. But a third space or a separate time of day would solve everyone’s issues, wouldn’t it?

@cricketmum84

camaleon, oodlesofboodles, I'll accept your spacegoats IF they're stackable.

I don't think the spaces themselves would be considered transphobic. But the fact that women as a sex had the audacity to want separate and equal safe spaces would be seen as other ingredients, rather than keeping all vulnerable groups safe.

Other ingredients = othering if you wondered

This is another one I don't understand - I see lots of women who take offense to phrases such as 'pregnant people' and I just don't understand the offence. I'm a person so this applies to me, I'm not offended at being referred to as a person?

Places have also made it clear this is to be used where appropriate, not across the board. That is always conveniently ignored by those who want to make a fuss about things.

@cricketmum84 and @LittleMyTopKnot myself and many other women would fully support third spaces. I believe that there should be spaces for people who do not want to use facilities which match their sex and I (and I believe many other women) would join in fundraising and campaigning to secure these spaces so that the needs of all groups requiring safe spaces are met.

However, whenever this idea is raised (and I have seen it raised many times on the FWR boards) it is met with absolute outrage. It is considered othering people for them to use a facility which does not match the identify which they feel is intrinsic to their sense of self. There is also the TWAW argument which holds that transwomen are literally women (I.e. of the female sex) and it is seen as transphobic to suggest that they use facilities which match their sex.

@LittleMyTopKnot

But I don’t understand why a third space would be transphobic ?

If you have a place like the spa where everyone is walking around naked, surely transwomen would not want to stand out? I cannot imagine transwomen want to walk around exposing their penises and testicles . They would surely feel quite dysphoric and embarrassed.

I do understand if they feel safer away from men though. But a third space or a separate time of day would solve everyone’s issues, wouldn’t it?

It's not transphobic but it is a separation that some do not want to accept. They want to be accepted and seem as real women and having a third separate space away from women doesn't play to that narrative.

That's why it's so obvious that it's nothing to do with safety and everything to do with validation.

@Thevenerableswede

I have not read the whole thread yet but it is interesting that the phrasing of the op somehow means that it not met with demands for it to be moved to the naughty step. Looks as though, faced with the actual evidence, lived experience etc, women know what is real and who is a danger to us. On another AIBU thread there were some women( not absolutely sure tbh) who think 5hey would be happy to share male spaces. Surely if they did, TW would also feel validated and safe by going there too?

On lots of similar threads there are loads of people saying they are fed up with trans threads and demanding that they are moved

Not so much on this one…

This is another one I don't understand - I see lots of women who take offense to phrases such as 'pregnant people' and I just don't understand the offence. I'm a person so this applies to me, I'm not offended at being referred to as a person?

It doesn't offend me per se. I would correct someone if they ever called me a chest feeder or the like.

But I do find it utterly ridiculous. Women get pregnant. Just women.

And it worries me to that if larger official bodies like the NHS are buying into (or more likely bowing down to under pressure) this crap then it won't be too longer before real issues like the ones on this thread come into serious play, and those I really do care about.

Worries me too**

@cricketmum84 there has to be a way to keep your daughter safe. I really cannot see why we can’t have third spaces

Surely transwomen know that they are transwomen? I really believe that they need extra protection. Men can be horrific.

I think it would work quite well. Not perfect but quite well. It would be impossible to self identify into born women’s spaces.

Some might try to self identify into transwomen’s spaces but I think they would be fewer. Also, and I hope I not am being offensive, but aren’t transwomen almost as strong as men? At least they would have a much bigger chance to defend themselves, especially if there were many transwomen. They would have some extra protection compared to born women.

I think that would be a good way to keep both groups safe. After all, isn’t that the most important thing, to keep everyone safe?

[quote LittleMyTopKnot]@cricketmum84 there has to be a way to keep your daughter safe. I really cannot see why we can’t have third spaces

Surely transwomen know that they are transwomen? I really believe that they need extra protection. Men can be horrific.

I think it would work quite well. Not perfect but quite well. It would be impossible to self identify into born women’s spaces.

Some might try to self identify into transwomen’s spaces but I think they would be fewer. Also, and I hope I not am being offensive, but aren’t transwomen almost as strong as men? At least they would have a much bigger chance to defend themselves, especially if there were many transwomen. They would have some extra protection compared to born women.

I think that would be a good way to keep both groups safe. After all, isn’t that the most important thing, to keep everyone safe?[/quote]
100% agree.

I've had some arguments on here before over this issue.

The problem I (and my lovely girl) have is that the men's bathroom makes her uncomfortable as she is scared of men. The ladies bathroom is unsuitable as it makes women uncomfortable.

There needs to be a third option.