to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

This whole thread highlights the fact that as humans we are sadly not very good at risk assessment.

When women say they are happy to share changing rooms etc with transwomen it suggests that they haven't done their research. And I totally understand that - I used to think transwomen were more vulnerable than women and it was our responsibility to be kind.

But once you look into it, sadly there's no evidence that males who identify as women are any less dangerous than any other male people. Nobody is claiming that all male-bodied people are dangerous. But enough are that we take sensible precautions. Up to one in three women and girls experience sexual assault,

We all know that hardly any car journeys result in a crash, but we still wear seatbelts. In fact we'd be horrified if someone let our children ride in their car without wearing seatbelts. So why would we let our daughters go on an overnight Girl Guides trip where they will share sleeping quarters with male-bodied people?

There's nothing kind about ignoring risk.

The opposite side is people making an argument that males should move from a male space into a female space. Nobody has quantified the potential risk, nor the distress this change will cause to the women who use those spaces.

I understand this and get that people have personal or religious reasons. But I know many people who can pass for male/female (get called him/her on a regular basis) and they’re not transgender but if they wanted to they could easily go into a same sex changing room and no one would question it. I’m not sure how having a mixed sex space makes it any more dangerous as this could happen in same sexed rooms.

I've never seen the question about why a third safe space isn't being lobbied for, answered on one of these thread by someone who is so gung ho about allowing transwomen into women's spaces.

Not once have a actually seen anyone give a real in depth answer as to why they think the infiltration of women's spaces is the right resolution over an additional space.

I see plenty saying they don't see the issue and they are happy with it but honestly never seen a solid reasoning as to why they think this is the most appropriate solution.

I’ve seen way more nastiness on a flannels thread. (In fact a cursory glance shows none on here.)
OP, if you wanted to provoke a bloodbath, almost anything laundry related would have done.

High profile? Giving Monty too much credit there.

She's big in Japan on Twitter! 43k followers. For comparison, Laurie Penny has 176k, so maybe she's smaller than I thought.

I can only speak from the UK, where…

• A man identified as trans so that he would be imprisoned with women, where he raped them.

• A different male rapist who subsequently changed his name and identified as trans escaped from the police and they were told they had to change the alert in local media from something like ‘police seeking Mr X rapist in local area’ to ‘police urgently seeking a women called Julia in local area’

• a man aka transwoman went into a pool ladies changing room where young girls were present and exposed his penis, saying that he had the right to do so and that the mums of the female children who objected were transphobes.

• Children are being ‘socially transitioned’ by schools and teachers are being told to hide this from parents.

• Lesbians are being bullied at school fro being ‘transphobes’ if they don’t want to date people with penises who fancy women but insist on calling themselves lesbian transwomen instead of straight men.

• A man went to a women’s rape crisis poster and posted to social media that he was sitting there with an erection. Next to the rape victims, who put up with this because his feelings were more important than theirs.

• Women’s sports are being destroyed by men insisting on competing as women because this gains the men attention money and fame they could never have experienced if they were competing in the male category.

Some men do not rape or harass women. Many do. Women are entitled to have a few small spaces without penis in where they can relax for a few minutes. It really isn’t much to ask.

No civilisation in history had ever, ever, thought it was acceptable for men to have free access to female only spaces. If you don’t under why you are sheltered and naive.

Safeguarding women and children is more important to me and many, many others than the feelings of a minority of adult males.
It should also be more important to the legislators and policymakers in our country.

@toocold54

The opposite side is people making an argument that males should move from a male space into a female space. Nobody has quantified the potential risk, nor the distress this change will cause to the women who use those spaces.

I understand this and get that people have personal or religious reasons. But I know many people who can pass for male/female (get called him/her on a regular basis) and they’re not transgender but if they wanted to they could easily go into a same sex changing room and no one would question it. I’m not sure how having a mixed sex space makes it any more dangerous as this could happen in same sexed rooms.

Mixed sex groups are fine if all of those groups pose an equal risk. They don't.

Sex is a protected characteristic for many many reasons. Having unisex spaces is not always appropriate or safe.

You will always get a proportion of people from any group ignoring boundaries. But that doesn't mean we throw them out the window altogether.

But I know many people who can pass for male/female (get called him/her on a regular basis) and they’re not transgender

That's highly unlikely. Humans are excellent at telling the sex of another human. Few people pass as the opposite sex even after surgery and hormones, very very very few do without them.

@toocold54

The opposite side is people making an argument that males should move from a male space into a female space. Nobody has quantified the potential risk, nor the distress this change will cause to the women who use those spaces.

I understand this and get that people have personal or religious reasons. But I know many people who can pass for male/female (get called him/her on a regular basis) and they’re not transgender but if they wanted to they could easily go into a same sex changing room and no one would question it. I’m not sure how having a mixed sex space makes it any more dangerous as this could happen in same sexed rooms.

As PPs have said, it isn't really about toilets. It's being focused on toilets because it's a land grab. Once that's been acquired (because it's easy to make women look silly about weeing), the precedent exists so why can't intact males go here and there and everywhere else....

I've worked in several women's refuges over the course of a number of years. Unless you have experience of working with women at high risk from perpetrators, or are a survivor yourself, I don't think most people understand the high levels of trauma that some DA survivors are living with. Ive worked with women who weren't ready to leave the house for weeks after they arrive in case they see a man on the street. Women who can't go to the police station in case they have to interact with a male officer, or court in case they get cross examined by men ( well actually by anyone really as they would be expected to relive their trauma).

The idea of anyone with a penis being allowed into a women's refuge is beyond troubling. The idea that traumatised women should have to just put up with this is abhorrent.

Also the idea that abusive men wouldn't self id in order to access vulnerable women is highly naive. I've seen men give up their jobs and essentially spend their lives full time stalking ex partners.

I also know of cases of trans women who are very vulnerable and experiencing high levels of abuse. Why are people who want refuges for trans women not campaigning for separate refuges for them?

@Kaykay247

Would you like your elderly mum to be cared for/bathed/dressed/undressed by a person with a penis? Or have your mammogram or smear with one?

My late mother was often cared for, bathed etc by men, in a care home. She claimed one of them had sex with her. She'd had enough sex in her life to know, but no-one except me believed her. Not even my dad. There was nothing I could do except give the man in question a hard stare. That man, by the way, was not at all trans, but the question reminded me of the event.

OP, if you wanted to provoke a bloodbath, almost anything laundry related would have done.

Quite

Ah, I wondered why there had been so many clearly goady posts recently as well as posters who start with a 'I just want to understand' post, ignore any evidence presented to them and are posting 'you're all evil transphobes' in a handful of pages. Strange that, it's as if they've got a specific agenda....

There's never any attempt to discuss how to accommodate the needs of both groups, or to argue points in a considered thoughtful way, they just shout 'transphobe' as if it wins every argument. It used to silence women but there's been too much sunlight now.

I do not want to be locked in a prison cell with someone with a penis.

I should have the right to only be particularly vulnerable, such as being undressed or asleep, around male bodied individuals that I have personally chosen to trust.

In employment and education, only females must deal with menstruation, gestation, and breastfeeding. We must be able to be identified as a class of people to insure our ability to participate fully and not face discrimination is protected.

I fully support the right of every individual to defy gender stereotypes, choose their own name, sense of fashion, and personal sense of identity. I simply think that personal identity has nothing to do with official data collection and the need to provide legal and physical protections for the class of people who gestate young.

@SilenceOfTheNaans

I've never seen the question about why a third safe space isn't being lobbied for, answered on one of these thread by someone who is so gung ho about allowing transwomen into women's spaces.

Not once have a actually seen anyone give a real in depth answer as to why they think the infiltration of women's spaces is the right resolution over an additional space.

I see plenty saying they don't see the issue and they are happy with it but honestly never seen a solid reasoning as to why they think this is the most appropriate solution.

The thing is, many women HAVE suggested this for quite some time!

Unfortunately, however any suggestion of a third space is labelled as transphobic and exclusionary, as it doesn't validate the chosen identity of the trans person.

Because some people's feelings are more important than other people's privacy and dignity.

And this is called progress.

And yeah, I guess the OP have left the building....

Got enough screen shots yet @MissPrimaryCrafts ?

Aw that sounds lovely. Inclusive of age too. Does that mean 50 year old men can re-join nurseries or reception classes and ask the (almost inevitably) female teachers/nursery assistants to wipe their bums?

It's funny but this is where we are going with all this ridiculousness.

It's my right to self ID as a toddler and fuck all this adult shit off.

@Mulletsaremisunderstood

And yeah, I guess the OP have left the building....

I'm quite enjoying the numbers on the vote though

turns out we evil FWR "Sex and Gender Debate" types aren't the out of touch minority some people think

@MapGirlExtraordinaire have you got a link to statistics that show the risk is the same from men as transwomen? Appreciate a look 👀

What Bunt said.

Doingitmyself. How terrible for your mum. Just shocking and horrible 💐💐

I really want transwomen to be protected. I understand that they are a very vulnerable group. I cannot imagine what they would face in prisons. It is such a hard balance isn’t it?

Why don’t we try to campaign for special spaces for transwomen, everywhere where needed, pools, prisons etc? In that way transwomen would be much more safe and protected and born women /girls would be safe and protected as well. And transwomen would be unlikely to worry too much about exposed penises.

I think that may be a really good solution.

Bunty, FFS we need an edit button!