to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

Transwomen are often as, if not more vulnerable than women, in male spaces

So Transwomen feel unsafe in men’s spaces and the solution to their problem is to advocate for men to be welcomed into women’s spaces? 🤔

Why should Transwomen feeling vulnerable in men’s spaces become a problem for women??

What’s wrong with them advocating for a third space - so that everyone feels safe in a space designated for their own sex/gender?

I think YANBU OP and agree that abusive men, sadly, will find ways to be abusive whatever.

I do think people should stop calling every woman who feels uncomfortable about certain things a hateful transphobe - if a woman says she doesn't hate trans people are wants them to be happy and safe but she feels there should be limits in some scenarios then it makes me angry when people pile on her going 'You're a hate-filled TERF who is the reason trans people get murdered/kill themselves'. I have no issues with trans people in 'women's spaces' my daughter or I use myself, but I can see why some women, especially survivors of abuse, may find it difficult because they are afraid of men (not because they hate trans people).

BUT I do also think a lot of the objections are theoretical - they're kind of the exaggerations to the point of absurdity about things that wouldn't actually be read or acted out that way on any scale.

People often 'nut pick' and find the occasional trans rights person who is 'Women shouldn't be exclusionary by talking about cervixes' or 'Lesbians should accept lady dick or they're transphobes' but I don't think those at all represent the mainstream thought of trans people and their support.

Nor, to me, is organisations using trans-inclusive language a determined campaign that no one can ever use the words 'mother' or 'woman' again, although TBH I don't see why they can't use expressions like 'mothers and birthing parents' or 'woman and people with cervixes' because that's properly inclusive to me, but there you go.

@Teateaandmoretea

Transwomen are often as, if not more vulnerable than women, in male spaces.

This is probably true. But why is it the responsibility of women to sort it out?

Vile transphobic males can’t help but be violent but women have to be ‘kind’

Okay then 👍🏻

Who is (on average) stronger - males or females?

Who is more vulnerable at the hands of a violent male - a male or a female? Males are, of course, larger, stronger and don't have the risk of becoming pregnant. These differences are sex differences and are not changed by someone dressing differently or changing their pronouns.

The sex differences have been extensively researched wrt sport - you can easily see the differences and why we have separate classes for males and females in most sports.

As I understand it, there have been no murders of transwomen in the UK in the past few years. (Great - I am glad we are a pretty tolerant society on the whole). Sadly, many hundreds of women have died at the hands of men.

Haven't RTFT as have been offline but just in case this hasn't been posted, I saw this on Twitter yesterday and it's relevant. There's usually something going on when a thread like this appears in AIBU.

twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1413061143321620481?s=19

[quote Clarabella77]@dyslek That is very presumptuous. You have no idea what challenges I have had to face in my life.

I am fortunate not to have had to face prison or a hostel.

But I understand what it is like to be terrified by a male. That vulnerability whenever you step out and you see that person in every stranger, when you jump at every phone notification or hide in your own home whenever someone unexpected knocks on your door.

That's why I said there are still some grey areas to be worked out. The rights of vulnerable women in prisons or hostels or refuges need to be weighed up against any potential threat. I think there are ways to manage these challenges without denouncing trans women or denying access to safe spaces to them too.[/quote]
I don't think anyone is denying transwomen's right to safe spaces. It's just that those safe spaces should not by right be shared with women.

As someone said on another thread earlier this week, not all men are sex offenders. But the vast majority of sex offenders are male. So it's basic safeguarding for women and girls to retain single sex spaces - and consider a third space for transwomen.

People often 'nut pick' is a glorious glorious autocorrect

I think transwomen must have such a difficult time and I really feel for them. I wouldn’t mind sharing toilets with them .

But I am a bit worried about men who just say that they are trans. How do we know who is trans?

There was a thread here with this person with a penis who got into a jacuzzi with his exposed penis next to this 8/9 year old girl. Next to her!!! Someone said the penis was “semi erect”. 🤮. I don’t think a transwoman would ever do that but how can we tell them apart?

I would never in a million years want someone with a semi erect, exposed penis next to my 8 year old girl. The thought horrifies me !

The lesbian “gotcha” is bizarre.

It really totally is.

[quote Doyoumind]Haven't RTFT as have been offline but just in case this hasn't been posted, I saw this on Twitter yesterday and it's relevant. There's usually something going on when a thread like this appears in AIBU.

twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1413061143321620481?s=19[/quote]
Who is this?

Surely people wouldn't try to solicit transphobia?

I don't believe she represents most trans people's views.

Waves @Spacegoats

I think cis men are far more of a threat than trans women, but trans/self-ID is the only issue most of Mumsnet cares about, let's be real.

She's a high profile British activist.

@MimiDaisy11

if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him

Not all predators are the same. Some are bolder than others. Some are opportunistic. The fact that women are assaulted more in gender neutral changing facilities shows that signs and segregation does make a difference.

Also the issue is with men. But what’s a man? Also what’s a transwoman? I’ve noticed that with cases like Karen White because Karen assaulted women they’re deemed a “man” but why? There’s no real criteria separating them.

The sign isn’t the deterrent. The major deterrent is social expectations.

I think most of society would agree that a decent man would not intentionally go into a female space where women are vulnerable, for whatever reason.

When society agrees, the sign works relatively well. Occasionally truly deviant men, who don’t care about society, or feel sure they won’t be caught will go past it, but when that occurs, we’re all clear that he is a deviant person. He can be ejected and prosecuted.

But now, deviant men can walk into women’s if they claim they are women. The law entitles them to do it. If women complain, other uninvolved men will not protect the women or make a fuss on their behalf. They’ll tell them they’re dicks for harassing the presumed male woman.

And quite possibly, most women won’t complain because they fear the backlash. They’ll walk away. And those women now longer feel safe in a space that once they would have used without thought.

Transwomen are often as, if not more vulnerable than women, in male spaces... because of male violence.
And yet trans activists solution is to allow any man who says he is a woman into womens spaces. Logic fail.

@PhilSwagielka

I think cis men are far more of a threat than trans women, but trans/self-ID is the only issue most of Mumsnet cares about, let's be real.

Transwomen are equally as important, but entirely separate to women by sex (a protected characteristic).

It isnt a competition of who is more of a risk. All vulnerable groups are equal but separate. None are more or less important.

MN is huge and this is AIBU.

You are.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=KpfTBEXqGQM

I found this to be really helpful when thinking about people with a penis in a women's prison either as an inmate or as a guard.

A transwoman has also been appointed as the CEO (or a similar title) of rape crisis in Edinburgh. Clearly this is a political appointment with an agenda. They may be a great appointee, who knows, but it is controversial especially when that person has been known to state that a woman doesn't have the right to request a female medical examiner following a sexual assault. How is that good trauma based practice?

There is an agenda here that is having real life consequences for women. It's not just about your nice friends who, probably, wouldn't hurt a fly.

What a coincidence Doyoumind. In that case, let me smile for my screenshot.

What I find most worrying about this thread is that it's apparently posted by a trainee teacher!

To my mind calls into question the quality of education, particularly I wonder about safeguarding training.

Also makes me worry what they will say to pupils.

Although I think the faux naïveté is exactly that!

And you ARE being argumentative - there's TONS Of articles and threads you could have taken the time to read and study and instead you're posting like this.

1 YES I believe sexual predators WILL use this law to gain access to victims - it's already happening!

Not all trans people are predators and not all predators are trans but this law will definitely make it much easier for predators to access victims

What I think is particularly heinous is women's refuges no longer being single SEX! These are women and children who've suffered the most horrific abuse by men and they're being expected to cope with trans workers and residents in this sphere. They absolutely deserve to feel safe and protected and this is a shitty thing to do to them

2 girls and women have a right to privacy and dignity and protected spaces. We fought long and hard to achieve this it is not for men to destroy that and that's what this law will allow

3 girls and women going through gynae based illness and injury or screening have a right to feel completely comfortable and safe when doing so. If a patient asks for a female dr and is presented with a trans one that is not meeting the patients needs AT ALL. As a former nurse I can well see such policies causing patients not to get screening or seek treatment when they have symptoms which could well mean literally women and girls dying as a result of such policies

It makes a mockery of medical safeguarding as potentially a woman who requests a female practitioner and/or a female chaperone could be presented with a trans woman as one or both of these. This is particularly worrying for women - like myself - who've been victims of sexual violence who would not cope at all with eg a smear test being done by a man! Do you want to be alone with a person with a penis performing your smear test without a natal woman as chaperone op?

What about if a woman is visiting her gp surgery for treatment following a rape? Should she have to tolerate a trans woman in her private and very vulnerable space? What about a child that's been raped?

Also as pp said language most definitely matters when it comes to healthcare. The simpler and clearer advice and practice language is the more likely patients are able to access and engage with help and treatment

Reference to "pregnant people" for example is a nonsense as only natal women can get pregnant and give birth.

This also feeds into legal language and legal rights eg maternity leave and maternity pay

4 it's not just women's rights it's also rights to follow certain religions will be affected as some religions require that women only deal with other women in certain circumstances

5 it's also affecting lesbian rights - go look at the vile language used by trans activists against lesbians, they are being told they HAVE to accept and even have sex with trans women inc those who still have a penis

6 men competing against women in sport because they declare themselves trans and meet arbitrary largely unscientific measures to do so will basically erase women's sport. They are taller, stronger, have stronger hearts and greater lung capacity, have a completely different metabolism. It is not an even playing field not even close

and send trans people where?

They can lobby and fight for their own spaces - just like we had to! But WITHOUT taking over ours!

My brother, uncles and cousins would not be allowed in certain spaces with girls or women for safeguarding reasons yet they are all safe, decent men. But KNOWN and even CONVICTED sexual predators ARE being allowed access to potential victims - do you seriously see no problem with that at all?

@illuminatethis I have trans friends too - they are also horrified at the idea of this law as they are sensible well educated people who can see and are aware of the potential for abuse of the law and know that there are already nasty people who've taken advantage of the current laws. It disadvantages them too as they are lumped in with the TRA's and predators by many and they aren't the same as those people. It's increased THEIR vulnerability to bigoted attacks which was the last thing they needed.

If the trans people you are friendly with don't understand that then they too are very poorly informed

I think you are young and silly, though clearly wellmeaning.

I agree to a point, as I said there's a strong sense of faux naïveté too

@CiaoForNiao also a csa survivor, guides was my safe place too at a time when I really felt far from safe generally

I agree the toilet/changing room issue is a red herring

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

She's a high profile British activist.

Oh oops ok

[quote Clarabella77]@MissPrimaryCrafts I completely agree.

Transwomen are often as, if not more vulnerable than women, in male spaces.

I acknowledge there are a few grey areas with this debate as we work out how best to support trans people as a society. But this idea that trans rights are a huge threat to women's right, I think is overblown.[/quote]
I have never yet had any of my lived experiences of violence or threat at the hands of male people not be dismissed and trivialised as being overblown.

I suppose I can see why you would do this, er, Clarabella, since that's pretty much the default response and the reason we needed #MeToo (which of course has been roundly criticised as "going too far"). But I can't see why you think you're doing anything new.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

She's a high profile British activist.

High profile? Giving Monty too much credit there.

[quote Doyoumind]Haven't RTFT as have been offline but just in case this hasn't been posted, I saw this on Twitter yesterday and it's relevant. There's usually something going on when a thread like this appears in AIBU.

twitter.com/KatyMontgomerie/status/1413061143321620481?s=19[/quote]
Everything is transphobic to that lot. Science, biology, women talking about themselves...

I don't think anyone is denying transwomen's right to safe spaces. It's just that those safe spaces should not by right be shared with women

indeedy

if male spaces aren't safe for some males, then that's a male problem to solve. No need for women to be involved at all

Men should stop being so transphobic and make room for gender non conforming males in their spaces

I don’t think a transwoman would ever do that but how can we tell them apart?

Exactly. That’s why safeguarding exists. Most men won’t want to attack or molest women and children. But enough do that it warrants (or warranted, until recently ) safeguarding.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I'll bite.

What is going on is a wholesale grab by men's rights activists, anti-feminists, and people (mostly male, men at birth) who hate women - whose hatred of women is deeply subconscious.

And what they're trying to grab is the fundamental definition of what it is to be a girl or a woman, to be female.

It's really not about which lavatory people use, It's far more fundamental than that.

And from that land grab, everything else flows.

It makes me furious. These men have NO IDEA what it is to be born & socialised in patriarchy as a girl.