to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

What does ‘inclusive for everyone’ even look like?

Is it mixed sex spaces everywhere?

Is it 100 percent wheelchair spaces in every setting?

Should we make all public spaces inclusive for nudists?

Should we open every class at school to every adult who wants to be taught in that class?

Do we allow anyone to practice as a doctor?

Do we allow anyone who wants to to come to the UK to live?

Do we allow everyone to adopt children with no gatekeeping?

[quote Clarabella77]@MissPrimaryCrafts I completely agree.

Transwomen are often as, if not more vulnerable than women, in male spaces.

I acknowledge there are a few grey areas with this debate as we work out how best to support trans people as a society. But this idea that trans rights are a huge threat to women's right, I think is overblown.[/quote]
Do you think there is any possibility this is because you think you will never be in a hostel or prison or DV shelter?

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

IMO society should be as inclusive as possible for all people regardless of race/age/gender/sex or any other characteristic. It’s 2021.

Right. If you don't think we should discriminate on sex or age, then are you in favour of mixed swx wards? Are you also in favour of shutting paediatric wards, and putting children with adults?

Caution, distressing content.

extract

CORK UNIVERSITY HOSPITAL (CUH) has confirmed that a review of protocols was carried out after a teenage girl was sexually assaulted by a male patient with whom she shared a hospital ward.

In a statement, the hospital said management had noted the comments of Justice Seán Ó Donnabháin at Cork Circuit Criminal Court.

“We wish to advise that following this incident a review of protocols for the admission of patients to hospital wards was undertaken. Factors such as accommodation, staffing and patient safety were examined as part of this review process.”

On TuesdayJudge Ó Donnabháin criticised the management of CUH after he was told that a teenage girl undergoing treatment for life-threatening injuries was sexually assaulted by a 63-year-old male patient with whom she was sharing a ward.

Cork Circuit Criminal Court heard that the assault on a 17-year-old girl at Cork University Hospital by Andrew O’Donovan from Butlersgift, Drimoleague was only interrupted because his heart monitor began to accelerate.

A nurse spotted the change in the monitor reading and went to the ward to investigate. She thought that the West Cork man was having a heart attack.

O’Donovan pleaded guilty to sexually assaulting the teenager on 14 May 2018.

Judge Sean O’Donnabhain heard that the 17-year-old victim in the case had sustained life-threatening injuries and was being treated in CUH. She was admitted to a ward in CUH which also contained three adult men.

One of the men was O’Donovan who the court heard approached the victim in the early hours of the morning of 14 May 2018 and sexually assaulted her while she lay in bed.

Unfortunately, she couldn’t reach the emergency call button arising out of the seriousness of her injuries. A nurse disrupted the assault when she came to the ward amid concerns that O’Donovan’s heart monitor was racing.

The court heard of O’Donovan’s schizophrenic tendencies. He has been engaging with mental health services since the 1980s.

In her victim impact statement the teenager recalled the harrowing details of her ordeal.

She said that she hoped her experience would force the paediatric age in hospitals to be raised from sixteen to 18. She said that she was left devastated by the incident.

Continues: www.thejournal.ie/cork-university-hospital-admission-protocol-sexual-assault-ward-5004600-Feb2020/

The identical moment we can tell who is 'genuine trans' and who is just a man pretending to be trans to gain access, wow, these problems will just fall away. Until that time, why should women be used as the sacrificial lambs for someone else's validation?

Transwomen are often as, if not more vulnerable than women, in male spaces.

This is probably true. But why is it the responsibility of women to sort it out?

Vile transphobic males can’t help but be violent but women have to be ‘kind’

Okay then 👍🏻

However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded.

Well it's lucky nobody thinks that then!

Men can be...mammographers.

Not for women in the UK they can't. The Society and College of Radiographers class mammography as an intimate examination.

Is this post a joke? A man should not be allowed into women's changing rooms. Sorry but no matter how much plastic surgery you have had to make look like a woman, you are still not a woman.

@invisiblesuit

I was attacked by a trans woman in a youth hostel supposedly all female dorm. Apparently I did something that annoyed them. Trans women are strong - it was a shockingly hard punch.

It would have been. Male humans punch an average of 162% harder than female humans.

@Thelnebriati

Men can be...mammographers.

Not for women in the UK they can't. The Society and College of Radiographers class mammography as an intimate examination.

Yes you’re right, apologies. I was thinking of breast clinic where my mum was seen by and had tests carried out by a male surgeon.

if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him

Not all predators are the same. Some are bolder than others. Some are opportunistic. The fact that women are assaulted more in gender neutral changing facilities shows that signs and segregation does make a difference.

Also the issue is with men. But what’s a man? Also what’s a transwoman? I’ve noticed that with cases like Karen White because Karen assaulted women they’re deemed a “man” but why? There’s no real criteria separating them.

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

IMO society should be as inclusive as possible for all people regardless of race/age/gender/sex or any other characteristic. It’s 2021.

Aw that sounds lovely. Inclusive of age too. Does that mean 50 year old men can re-join nurseries or reception classes and ask the (almost inevitably) female teachers/nursery assistants to wipe their bums?

Is this post a joke?

Quite likely.

It's as old as the hills now and wasn't funny the first time.

I don't have anything to say that hasn't been said more eloquently but I would like to add my voice to the NO. No male is so special they get to override women's rights, safety, privacy, dignity, boundaries and spaces. Women matter. CBA with it.

@toocold54

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8455191.stm

The link above..... Italy has a transgender prison. Third spaces are the obvious solution to the hierarchy of rights problems. However, this is not what is being demanded - only 100% unquestioned access to all female spaces will do.

I can tell that a lot of people here have never worked with or had contact with Sex Offenders.

You would not believe the lengths some go to, to breach their SHPO.

For example some are not allowed to have mobile phones that can access the internet...I knew of one that had a smart phone and hid it in their curtains by splitting the hem and sewing the phone in to the curtain.

Trust me when I say allow some of them to just say they are a woman and walk in...they will.

[quote grannysbay]@toocold54

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8455191.stm

The link above..... Italy has a transgender prison. Third spaces are the obvious solution to the hierarchy of rights problems. However, this is not what is being demanded - only 100% unquestioned access to all female spaces will do.[/quote]
Leading gay rights groups say they welcome the new prison as a dedicated space providing the psychological support transgender prisoners need.

Exactly, appropriate support. I would imagine that many transgender offenders would need specialist, sympathetic rehabilitation and support tailored to their specific situation.

We're letting them down if we just lump them in with female prisoners, surely?

[quote grannysbay]@toocold54

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8455191.stm

The link above..... Italy has a transgender prison. Third spaces are the obvious solution to the hierarchy of rights problems. However, this is not what is being demanded - only 100% unquestioned access to all female spaces will do.[/quote]
Hopefully those demanding to impose upon another protected group, equal but separate, will be in the minority.

As I understand it many transwomen have had a hell of a journey to become themselves. Reasonable transwomen would probably desire a place where they felt safe and understood but others the same.

We should ask really. Have there been any studies on this?

Excuse my ignorance.

This was my response on the last similar thread I saw:
I support Tranwomen, I support Transmen. I believe everyone should wear whatever they want, use whatever name they want and live a life free from fear and harassment.
I believe human sex is binary and you can't change sex.
I believe there are places functioning pensises do not belong, there are women's spaces and services for a very good reason.
I believe correct, simple language is important and that if women can not be named they can't be defined and therefore cannot be protected.
I believe sport (with a few exceptions such as equestrian events and the "game sports" such as darts) has to be segregated by sex.
I believe gender stereotypes types are damaging. I believe sex (biological) matters.

@ScottishNewbie

No problem with post-op trans women using female bathrooms. As PP said, if you have a penis, you shouldn't be in female bathrooms.

There are MANY MANY MANY reasons women feel vulnerable in bathrooms and changing rooms.
Periods, miscarriage, sexual assault survivors, delicate illnesses.
It's just another example of womens's rights being infringed upon, to make another party happy.

My issue is with men, and experiences that I have had with them mean that I want one space where I can breathe a sigh of relief and not have awkward encounters. If a trans woman goes through the necessary medical procedures then they should be entitled to use female spaces. Not before.
This is a hill I am prepared to die on.

You have worded my thoughts perfectly.

@ghostyslovesheets

Women's rights are SEX BASED SEX is a protected characteristic

making everything about 'gender' is overriding SEX - and that's important to stop

Women have the right to safe spaces - men are a threat to women

Men don;t stop being a threat to women because they wear a dress or lippy

Trans women are not women - they are men who identify as women

Women who have experienced sexual abuse, rape and domestic abuse at the hands of men deserve to be in spaces with no men to recover - the have the absolute right to counselling, medical examinations and support from biological women - not men

Allowing men to say they are women makes a mockery of our sex based rights and protections - see women only short lists, women's sport, equal pay, statistics (read Invisible Women!) - sex matters.

Also same SEX attraction is a real thing - lesbians and gay men are same SEX attracted not same 'gender' - ergo it's not transphobic to refuse to date or sleep with some one of the opposite sex however they dress!

I could go on - loving the wide eyed innocence

I completely agree with you, very well put.

@dyslek That is very presumptuous. You have no idea what challenges I have had to face in my life.

I am fortunate not to have had to face prison or a hostel.

But I understand what it is like to be terrified by a male. That vulnerability whenever you step out and you see that person in every stranger, when you jump at every phone notification or hide in your own home whenever someone unexpected knocks on your door.

That's why I said there are still some grey areas to be worked out. The rights of vulnerable women in prisons or hostels or refuges need to be weighed up against any potential threat. I think there are ways to manage these challenges without denouncing trans women or denying access to safe spaces to them too.

@TheDinosaurMum

We also don't just automatically fancy every nude woman 🙄

don't make us lesbians out to be some sort of perverse, perving at every opportunity group of people 🙄

The lesbian “gotcha” is bizarre. Lesbians have been using women’s spaces since they were babies. Leaving them where they are does not impose any additional risk to anyone. There’s also no evidence that lesbians are any more likely to be predatory than any other woman.

The opposite side is people making an argument that males should move from a male space into a female space. Nobody has quantified the potential risk, nor the distress this change will cause to the women who use those spaces.

There’s a massive difference between arguing for the status quo to continue, and arguing for a significant change with no evidence it’s safe and fair, and if it comes to that, no real justification given.

[quote Clarabella77]@dyslek That is very presumptuous. You have no idea what challenges I have had to face in my life.

I am fortunate not to have had to face prison or a hostel.

But I understand what it is like to be terrified by a male. That vulnerability whenever you step out and you see that person in every stranger, when you jump at every phone notification or hide in your own home whenever someone unexpected knocks on your door.

That's why I said there are still some grey areas to be worked out. The rights of vulnerable women in prisons or hostels or refuges need to be weighed up against any potential threat. I think there are ways to manage these challenges without denouncing trans women or denying access to safe spaces to them too.[/quote]
No need to weigh up conflicting needs between two separate but equal vulnerable groups.

Transwomen and women by sex (a protected characteristic) are equal but separate. Neither is more or less important.

Separate safe spaces suited to the needs of each is appropriate.

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men.

Precisely. There should be no men in women's sports because they have physical advantages. There should be no men in women's prisons because they can be a danger to women.

There should be no crimes committed by men recorded as by women because male pattern crime is quite different to that of women and so statistics get skewed very quickly.

Given that transwomen are a subset of men all the above applies to transwomen as much as to any other man.