to NOT think women's rights are being attacked?

[MissPrimaryCrafts]

Wanted to namechange in case this turns into a bloodbath but new users not being accepted so we'll see how it goes!

I realise this could be a bit provocative but I'm not looking for an argument, I just genuinely am finding it hard to understand the other side of this so would genuinely like a polite dicussion so I can understand better. Apologies in advance if it sparks natiness in replies

The issue being transphobia and womens rights...I've seen a lot of talk in threads recently about how 'anyone standing up for women is apparantly and transphobe and TERF' and that women are losing their rights and I just don't see how.

I assume the main issue is with allowing trans women into female only spaces, and people feeling like it's no longer really a 'female only' space as men could just say they're a woman and be allowed in?

I understand this as being a problem...but only to an extent. Firstly I feel like I wonder how much more access this would actually give men? Like honestly, if a man is going to go a commit a crime against a woman, is seeing a 'women only' sign on a changing room door really going to stop him? Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space? Does allowing trans women really change things?

Also, if that IS your issue with allowing trans people into female only spaces, then your issue isn't with trans women, it's with men. If you're worried about men entering the space by 'pretending' to be trans, then the potential problems are because of men, not because of trans women. So surely there are better ways to address our issues with men committing crimes than to make sure trans women are excluded from certain spaces? Aren't there other ways we as a society can address the prevalence of crimes against women?

Of course - this is all if you 'believe' that being trans is a real thing, I'm aware many people don't think it's real and I think that's a separate issue. But if you think trans people do 'exist'/it is a real thing, but you want to bar them from female only spaces, I just wonder why? What do you think of the above?

Sorry this is an essay!

IMO society should be as inclusive as possible for all people regardless of race/age/gender/sex or any other characteristic. It’s 2021.

@Ghosttile

That’s absolutely insane. A quick google suggests it’s only in England.

Sorry, my bad, you know how the whole of the UK gets lumped in. Guilty as charged.

Retreats in shame....

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

IMO society should be as inclusive as possible for all people regardless of race/age/gender/sex or any other characteristic. It’s 2021.

Cool, cool.

Inclusivity for women necessitates certain protections to allow them to partake inclusively in all aspects of society.

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

It’s a bit ignorant and dismissive to just say ‘your wrong, LEARN first’ I don’t see an issue with it, and I’m just as entitled to my opinion as you are. It’s unfortunate that our opinions don’t align.

You seem to have misunderstood. Not all opinions are equal, an informed opinion that understands the facts of the matter is far superior to an uninformed one that doesn't/ It's not "unfortunate" that our opinions don't align, it's simply sad that you have not taken the time to understand the issue before stating an opinion.

Oh, and the fact women's rights are being eroded is not an opinion anyway. IT's just that: a fact.

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

IMO society should be as inclusive as possible for all people regardless of race/age/gender/sex or any other characteristic. It’s 2021.

Hear, hear!

Totally agree.

All are equal.

Safe spaces for all. Separate but safe.

Systems inherently have issues of corruption and degradation that need to be guarded against and hard fought for rights are vulnerable to being part of that without vigilance. I'd more say women and girl's rights and protections are being degraded through many factors. There are those who are actively attacking them, but I don't think that's the main attitude for most discussing TWAW & should be allowed in all women's spaces - it's this kinda wearing away that women's protections in law aren't that important, that the concerns are overblown, and lack of consideration for the impact & ignoring that safeguarding is meant to consider the worst case scenerio - even if it seems like an unlikely or isolated incident.

Is he really going to pretend to identify as a woman to enter the space, or is he just going to enter the space?

You mean like those who've gone through far more to get into professions that enabled access and power over vulnerable people?

The "are the assholes really going to X" has been used for ages about clergy, teachers, medical professionals, parents, carers, and so on to silence victims of violence. I was raped in a hospital by medical professionals - I do not think they joined their profession to do that nor do I even actually care. We know these abuses of power are more likely to happen in certain spaces and with certain power imbalances. We should consider how to put safeguarding in place to reduce the risks. It does take more than single sex spaces, but they are part of the picture.

Being distressed as one's sex characteristics and being perceived as a particular distress exists - commonly called gender dysphoria. That being framed as trans is entirely cultural, it's a potentially useful term for a mix of thoughts gender, identity, and gender dysphoria, but there are a wide range of ways those can be viewed that have changed and morphed over time and place - not all dysphoric people identify as trans. How this distress was framed in the mainstream in the 90s, when I started getting care for it, is entirely different to now and likely how it will be in a few decades.

Flip the script - consider a dysphoric female child. Would you think it appropriate such a child be denied sex-based opportunities, rights, and protection solely on identifying as a guy? Having been a dysphoric child, I'd love to hear how many would have made it okay for tiny 45kg/7 stone soaking wet teenage-me to bunk in with the guys who could and did throw me into walls like I was made of paper.

Most can recognize that such a child would be vulnerable in male spaces and would want additional sex-based protection. Most can recognize that if participating in otherwise all-male sports, there are additional training considerations and risks. Many can see such a child should not be barred from female-based opportunities if they were so desired by the child because however the child feels at any particular time, someone's sex matters and has an impact.

If we can recognize this child - even if an isolated incident in any particular school - would be more vulnerable in the male spaces, then we should then also recognize this child would be more vulnerable if males were in female spaces.

Mixed sex spaces are higher risk no matter how the people within them identify, that's well demonstrated in data. There are ways to mitigate these risks, but it's not by removing single sex spaces or having identity override sex. It requires a lot more funding and consideration than that. I know a new-built secondary that's put in single sex and 'gender neutral' facilities - the latter aren't built the same as the former because the safeguarding needs in those spaces are different. Acknowledging that is part of reducing risks and protecting everyone's rights.

However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!

Nobody thinks transwomen are more likely to be opportunistic sexual predators than any other male. However, according to crime statistics and other studies, neither are they less likely to be such predators. Therefore, they like all other males, no matter how nice, have no place in women's single sex areas.

It’s only England because Wales stopped doing it in 2018.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-46061303

Which begs the question why is England still doing it? I feel a letter to my MP coming on …

@Kaykay247

Would you like your elderly mum to be cared for/bathed/dressed/undressed by a person with a penis? Or have your mammogram or smear with one?

Men can be carers and mammographers. I’ve had smears done by male doctors. So has my mum. I’m not sure you’re necessarily making a helpful point in your post here.

Women should always have the right to a person of the same sex for the things you’ve listed here though.

@Lefthousewithpooinhair

IMO society should be as inclusive as possible for all people regardless of race/age/gender/sex or any other characteristic. It’s 2021.

No. And we are only talking about sex here.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger-8lwbp8kgk

IMO society should be as inclusive as possible for all people regardless of race/age/gender/sex or any other characteristic. It’s 2021.

I agree but do believe that there is a way for this to be done without excluding women who would like their safe space to remain safe and female only.

@Ghosttile

It’s only England because Wales stopped doing it in 2018.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-46061303

Which begs the question why is England still doing it? I feel a letter to my MP coming on …

Yes, it's shocking compared to the rate for male by sex rates.

Danielle says they are a woman so they are - welcome to self ID. I await your explanation as to how we tell the TW Danielle Muscato from a man

Luckily Danielle is kind enough to explain to us that we don't understand because we are anti-feminist bigots, Kit19. I'm so relieved that someone with a beard has come along to tell us how to be feminists! I'd been wondering if I was feministing right.

@invisiblesuit

I was attacked by a trans woman in a youth hostel supposedly all female dorm. Apparently I did something that annoyed them. Trans women are strong - it was a shockingly hard punch.

God, Im so sorry.

I dont know when as a society we will stop finding male violence acceptable.

IMO society should be as inclusive as possible for all people regardless of race/age/gender/sex or any other characteristic. It’s 2021

That's sweet. Shame its absolutely meaningless as a statement.

‘Inclusive’ sounds nice. But in reality, different people need different things.

A space that was ‘inclusive’ for (for example) a child with special needs that might talk loaded at random times would not be ‘inclusive’ for a hard of hearing person that then couldn’t hear.

A space that was built to be fully inclusive for wheelchair users would not suit someone with back problems who was 2m tall.

And sometimes people want to be exclusive. Single sex wards get overwhelming public support. You cannot have a space that is inclusive, simultaneously, for someone who wants a single sex space and a member of the opposite sex who wants to be allowed in.

Lesbians don't have dicks.

Well ones who are biologically female don’t 🤔

OP YABU and if you can’t see that you are incredibly privileged.

Maybe consider the situ where you have to sleep in a hostel, go in vile public loos because you can’t afford an expensive coffee or end up in a women’s refuge.

It isn’t just about being nice and smart bathrooms at work.

.

I also understand Biology and how easy it is for chromosomes to get mixed up and someone becoming XX instead of XY.

What? What on earth is this supposed to mean?

@334bu

*However, this idea that all trans women are opportunistic sexual perverts is so strange and unfounded. They want to be able to use the toilet without being harassed by cis men as well!!*

Nobody thinks transwomen are more likely to be opportunistic sexual predators than any other male. However, according to crime statistics and other studies, neither are they less likely to be such predators. Therefore, they like all other males, no matter how nice, have no place in women's single sex areas.

Apparently (Sweedish study) there is actually a slight increase in sex offending prevelance in TW compaired to non trans identifying men.

Also the very recent court judgement outlined a 50% of TW in prison in/trying to get in to the female estate are sex offenders, which is massively higher than the non transidentified male popultation.

Gosh, that's excellent, MyCreate.

Not the 'that never happens' line again (it does; there are documented cases of it), or the bizarre open-door policy that as men are going to attack women anyway, we might as well remove all precautions (tantamount to leaving your front door wide open and inviting any passing burglar to rob your house).

These two tired arguments have been done to death. And debunked many times.

I was attacked by a trans woman in a youth hostel supposedly all female dorm. Apparently I did something that annoyed them. Trans women are strong - it was a shockingly hard punch.

Sorry to hear that, Invisiblesuit. Yet another example of why males should be kept out of women-only spaces. And it seems to me that those who demand the most aggressively to be let in are the ones it's most important to keep out.

I hope you've recovered from the assault, psychologically as well as physically.

@MissPrimaryCrafts I completely agree.

Transwomen are often as, if not more vulnerable than women, in male spaces.

I acknowledge there are a few grey areas with this debate as we work out how best to support trans people as a society. But this idea that trans rights are a huge threat to women's right, I think is overblown.

[quote Clarabella77]@MissPrimaryCrafts I completely agree.

Transwomen are often as, if not more vulnerable than women, in male spaces.

I acknowledge there are a few grey areas with this debate as we work out how best to support trans people as a society. But this idea that trans rights are a huge threat to women's right, I think is overblown.[/quote]
Vulnerability is not a competition.

Transwomen and women by sex (a protected characteristic) are equal. Neither is more important than the other.